Formula D Judging...

[RobbyStyle]

ooookay. i cant keep quiet any longer. i've attended plenty of FD events since 2004, I constantly stay up on the drivers/teams/cars, and i've DVR'd and torn apart each episode of FD on ESPN2 thus far.
NOW, with that said, can someone PLEEEASE tell me where the judging went wrong. I respect all three of the judges and the backgrounds they come from, but sometimes I just wanna scream OPEN YOUR EYES!!! and its not just when im at home watching slo-mo close-ups on TV... alot of it is apparent even in person.
I see so much favoritism to the more, what i like to call, "corporate" drivers i.e. Rhys and Sam. I didn't see exceptional angle from the Solstice all season. I saw tons of lateral acceleration, very little smoke, and alot of corrections at almost every stop on the FD circuit this season.
I also see alot of, what almost seems like, discrimination against drivers like Bill Sherman, for instance. He has out-angled, out-smoked, out-showed, and flat out out-driven ALMOST every driver he was paired up against all season. HOW ON EARTH DID HE GET PUT OUT BY HUBINETTE IN W. VIRGINIA?!?!?!
Sometimes, I try to convince myself that since FD is still in a growing stage its good to have big, corporate, factory-backed, AND/OR american-based teams on the podium with the defensive attitudes found alot in NASCAR. but then i get taken back, all the way to around 2001 when i started following D1 and reading about amature events in japan and watching the grassroots scene here in america grow, revolving around a fun, rock n roll, go big or go home mentality.
I respect and admire all the drivers in FD... well, to an extent, and Rhys Millen is definately one of them. I am in NO way bashing him in this thread (OKAY RHYS? JUST IN CASE YOU, YOUR TEAM, or an AVID FAN IS READING THIS AND IS GETTING DEFENSIVE), but when he would score higher w the judges for having little or no gap when chasing... review his angle. Almost non-existant. Is the gap between contenders a bigger deal than the 4 famous criteria?
FINAL NOTE
Just take your attention off the sponsors on the cars, the names of the drivers and what movies they stunt drove in and focus on 4 main things for me... SPEED, LINE, ANGLE, and OVERALL IMPACT. I'm tired of hearing drivers cry about getting bumped by another, more aggressive driver and its getting old hearing about "controversial" victories. Everyone has their own style of driving, if youre giving chase, take that into consideration.

im not tryin to start an argument, but wanting to hear everyone else's point of view. drivers, fans such as myself, you guys at FD... come one come all. its just a discussion i would love to have with fellow drift enthusiasts. thanks.

whew.

[MonkeySlide]

Two words dude..

"Anger Management"

Seriously though I could post an intelligent response to your post since I agree and disagree on some points.

But really this thread smells like its going to turn into a flame war.

You just opened a can of worms in a sea full of self-righteous fish.

I hope you're ready!

*ding ding ding*

[RobbyStyle]

haha, no anger here. just wanting to discuss it. calmly, and maturely discuss it... HEAR THAT FLAMERS!!! CALMLY AND MATURELY!!!

im ready for it.

[blacktop240]

dude i agree. all three judges are cool dudes... i do like the d1 judging better though. i see a lot of crap calls and wins that shouldnt be but its like football before they brought instant replay back. lol somethings are just missed...take millen at new jersey... he was running shallow angle a few times and got advanced. (ok off subject millen outside the racing suit is cool when he puts on the suit hes a .... did u hear the trash talk on camera last night at wall nj i mean come on he pulls the same stuff! then complaining cause dai used a ebrake to get the car sideways... ok done) alot of the newer guys on the scene seem to be doing good and out drove some of the big names but don't move on. i do give the judges props beacause the drivers are hauling butt and its hard as hell sometimes to tell the slight bobbles... anyway i have a bunch of ramble and i think i need to go to sleep.
later

[Hubert Young]

I got the chance to judge some amateur events during the early days of drifting here in the US, I must say it's one helluva job! Blink of an eye and the run is over. It's not an easy job and sometimes it's very understandable to miss some mistakes committed by the drivers. Then you got to deal with teams complaining and whining after making a close call. So props to Alex, Andy and Ken.

That said, instant replays might be a good idea to be introduced in the future. Each team is allowed to protest and request a instand reply review once for the entire tandam rounds.

[CamelTouge]

The Judges Judge from the Judges stand. They cant see all of the errors/corrections etc from their POV.

I agree with Hubert. Instant Replays would be a good idea.

What i like about D1 is that they use drivers who did not qualify/advance as spotters. They are placed at the clipping points. My suggestion to FD would be to use the drivers that did not qualify/advance to the top 32 and give them the capability to radio in to the judges and state if a certain driver made an error, etc. Obviously, the drivers would have to be NON-BIASED.

Hopefully, after seeing last nights coverage, i hope that they do not label Dai's victory as a "controversial" victory. Im tired of hearing that.

[AlexPfeiffer]

I did watch a few of the shows and yeah, If i wasnt there I would have been questioning my own calls. You guys do understand that the camera views on the TV show were opposite of where the judges are? That is still my biggest complaint about it. The view you see on TV isnt what we saw that day.

Another thing that people dont see is what is discussed at the drivers meetings. We try to go over what will and wont be acceptable for each track. What areas of the track are more important for the best score.

There will always be that questionable call. Its part of what drifting is. The best we as judges can do is explain why we gave a certain score. What made one persons drift better then the other persons and how that reflected the score.

I know this post doesnt change anything about your feelings towards the judging but I just wanted to give some input.

[AlexPfeiffer]

The Judges Judge from the Judges stand. They cant see all of the errors/corrections etc from their POV.

I agree with Hubert. Instant Replays would be a good idea.

What i like about D1 is that they use drivers who did not qualify/advance as spotters. They are placed at the clipping points. My suggestion to FD would be to use the drivers that did not qualify/advance to the top 32 and give them the capability to radio in to the judges and state if a certain driver made an error, etc. Obviously, the drivers would have to be NON-BIASED.

Hopefully, after seeing last nights coverage, i hope that they do not label Dai's victory as a "controversial" victory. Im tired of hearing that.

We have talked about having drivers as corner judges but we still have the argument of them being biased towards teammates. We do have dedicated corner workers that are used at specific corners that radio us if a clipping point is missed, or a tire goes off.

With Dia's victory, I do have to say that in the drivers meeting we did talk about that issue of being too close to your competitor going into the bank.

[fast_datsun]

Having been in the sports from the start and on both sides of some of the calls, I can tell you that Judging is the hardest part of the sport. I competed in All the major series, I can say the FD judges do a good job and better than most of the others. Do they make mistakes Yes. but everone does. Could it be better YES. I know the Judges and can say that they always do the best job they can. Having been on both side if some calls and talking with them they have always have a reason (a good one) that I may not have aggreed with, BUT it is a JUDGED sport and everyone will not be happy. My view are my view and there are theres. they see the track from one angle and it look different from another. I believe they have the best intention for the sport and try to be fair.....

[VQSWAP.com]

I think that FD should have a bigger pool of judges and rotate them in & out i also think they should be seperated maybe at 3 different points in the track

[Slapshotnerd]

Everyone always has an opinion about the 'best' way to have judging. There are 2 things that ALWAYS happen after EVERY race:

1 - That's ALWAYS a winner and a LOSER which is decided subjectively. Most of the time (unless they spun or hit a clip or a wall), the loser feels that they should have won.
2 - There's only one winner of each event. Every other person usually pulls the 'shoulda / coulda / woulda" card, and the easiest place for the blame to fall when that card comes out is the judges.

However, people forget that judges are A) humans, and B) making decisions spurt of the moment. Would Instant Replay help? perhaps. But that would also draw out a lot of decisions, and one thing that I think is really benefiting the sport right now is the minimal amount of downtime from start to finish of Tandem races. Would more judges / judging locations / spotters help? Possibly, but then you run into the problem of having different perspectives from different sources, and 1 person (or team) in the end still has to pick a winner or a loser.

Many times, there isn't a clear-cut winner. Sometimes neither driver deserves to move on because neither one drove the course like they did in qualifying (or like the judges asked them to during tandem). Other times, both drivers hit near-perfect runs, and it's next to impossible to determine who the BETTER driver was. However, decisions have to be made, and the more you analyze each decision, the more opportunity for flaws or inconsistencies to arise, the more people will disagree with it.

In the end, the judges must make a decision, and the drivers must accept it and move on. That's the only way this sport will continue to prosper.

[BestMotoring]

Thanks you guys for all your support…

I can say it’s one of Formula D biggest priority to make sure that the judging is done fairly, & non-biased. Great effort is taken to screen the Judging panel with their experience and knowledge of the sport to come up with the fairness & most stable judging panel possible. Not just for Formula D but for Drifting as an American sport.

Our judging panel consists of 3. I think that’s the perfect number. Because drifting isn’t just “Speed”, or not just about “Technical”, or just “Style”. It a combination of many factors that the judging panel collects and shares as a whole to make one “balanced” discussion. 1 person = too much power, 5 or more never make a decision.

One of our biggest jobs as a judge is not just to stand on the platform and say “good” or “bad”. But it’s our job to justify our decisions and explain why we made that call.

I rarely post anything in regards to judging for Formula D except for this time. After reading a lot of your post, I'd like to say thank you for supporting us and giving us that credit.

I’m not posting this as a rebuttal to an argument but more as clarity to what we do and why we do it, and were listening to what you say also.

[Formula D]

Just a heads up, FD has used instant replays this entire year to assist in judging if needed. It has been useful in many instances. What I can say is that generally the use if instant replay has not changed a judges option, but more so verified their initial take on the run.

[Soldat]

It really is the inherent flaw with a sport that decides a winner through judging. With drag racing, Formula 1, or . . . pretty much any other motorsport, the winner is simply whoever has the fastest time or gets to the finish line first. Officials are only called to make decisions if someone breaks or comes close to breaking a rule. However, when you have human officials judging a run and taking things like "overall impression" into account for their scores, there's always going to be someone questioning the decision.

Even among other judged sports like most Olympic events, Drifting is still at a disadvantage as (like others have already stated), the judges aren't always in a location when they can see everything going on. Especially with smoke clouds all over and another car in the way.

I don't always agree with the judges decisions, but I certainly don't think I could do better. Way too much to watch at once for my taste.

[Its_just_Yukio]

Normally, I'll just sit back and read these posts but I decided to chime in.

I'm from a position that no one in the thread is posting... I was a spotter for a two car team that competed in the whole FD 2007 season and I know how all of you feel. I would be on top of the tower at the same level as the judges and see what they see (however, the WV track sucked since I couldn't see half the track). Alex brought up a good point that there is a driver's meeting where little tidbits of information were exchanged to help the drivers/teams understand why and how each driver will be penalized. They don't show that on TV. That said, there were moments where I would question a call but then would be sorted out.

They're looking at what to penalize and as a spotter, we're trying to figure out how to win. I know how it conflicts and sometimes we get confused on why a driver will get hacked x amount of points if he/she gets far from the lead car and why a driver was docked x amount for correcting. There should be a LIST that is handed out to teams to show how many points will be deducted per error. We know what is considered as a "zero". Many times we would lose a round and I would ask the judges why on that was, and I would get an explanation. After, I would see their point and I would just let it go.

It was a pleasant experience dealing with the Formula D judges this year. Good luck to all teams and drivers. See you guys around.