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courantcom
07-22-2009, 01:43 PM
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/07/22/formula-drift-las-vegas-a-sideways-primer/

In the article, the author writes...

"Even the composition of the judging panel has its detractors. Chris Forsberg is a senior member of a team called Drift Alliance, and it also happens that one of the Formula Drift judges, Tony Angelo, is a senior member of Drift Alliance. So are Formula D drivers Vaughn Gittin, Jr. and Ryan Tuerck. Forsberg entered round four in third place and left in the lead in the Formula D standings; Tuerck started and finished in second, Gittin, Jr. gained a place, moving from fifth to fourth. That puts three of the four senior Formula Alliance members in the top four places of the standings the fourth member of the Alliance being a Formula D judge.

That isn't necessarily a smoking gun. But it is difficult to plead true impartiality when a team member is judging other team members in close situations. It was also telling that no one we spoke to would go on the record when discussing issues like this in Formula D. They couldn't risk it judges, unlike clocks, read and remember things."

...anyone agree?

markyd0s
07-22-2009, 02:02 PM
Hhhmmmm...DA has been putting it down at the events but to be honest I dont doubt that Tony Angelo has been looking out for his boys in DA. I think hes really trying to be legit but at the same time looking out for DA. Hell if I was a judge and one of my boys was competing I can tell you right now that I would try to give my boy better score than the other guy. Of course I wouldnt make it to obvious.

OldSkool510
07-22-2009, 02:03 PM
I'm sure FD considered the possible "conflicts of interest" prior to making Tony Angelo a judge. Drift Alliance has been kicking *Censored**Censored**Censored* all year on its own merits, without the aid of Tony's judging assistance. wink wink....

Piner
07-22-2009, 02:15 PM
yeah DA has been owning even without Tony's alleged "help"

courantcom
07-22-2009, 02:25 PM
agreed. So where do you all think this Autoblog author got his opinions planted? It seems like he was hanging out with a Viper a lot.

teambergenholtz
07-22-2009, 03:00 PM
It is obvious that Tony Angelo is a DA member. It is also obvious that individuals will make the assumption that Tony Angelo could possibly lean his judging towards DA members .............................BUT in my opinion I think Tony Angelo would not do such a thing based on ethics. He would lose all credibility if he did. IN FACT, he helped revolutionize how judging is done this year. Tony Angelo is an influential individual in the Drift community and for him to risk his credibility in a sport he loves dearly and helped establish domestically would be ludicrous if not damaging to his career in Drifting. Tony has heart for Drifting and would not risk any controversy considering he represents Formula D. People in the drift community would see right through this. It is wreckless for his career to judge in favor of DA members.

In addition, Formula Drift has taken the sport of Drifting above and beyond. Domestically and abroad. They are still growing the sport to this day. With a company as successful as Formula D based on what they have accomplished, one would assume that they have made some very INTELLIGENT decisions to bring the sport of Drifting to where it is today. With that statement at hand, Formula Drift made an intelligent descision to bring Tony Angelo to the judging table.........knowing the good and the bad. Formula Drift knew Tony could bring a lot to the table and make the judging even better as a FD judge.

Nevertheless, in my opinion I think Formula Drift made a good decision in bringing in Tony Angelo. I think Tony Angelo is doing his very best to make sure judging in FD is the best in the world........................most of all for the sake of DRIFTING.

I could be wrong, but this is just my 2 cents.

Ron B.

OldSkool510
07-22-2009, 03:05 PM
I agree 100% with Mr. Ron B.

courantcom
07-22-2009, 03:16 PM
Tony Angelo is his favorite judge. My favorite judge is ERNIE FIXMER! <3 ;-) hahahahaha...

DA News
07-22-2009, 03:17 PM
33% of a judging panel does not a majority make.

courantcom
07-22-2009, 03:18 PM
...okay, quick! Who's gonna love Andy? I <3 Andy too.

courantcom
07-22-2009, 03:19 PM
...okay, so again, where did this Autoblog author get his opinions swayed at? It wasn't at my camp.

YOitzJDM
07-22-2009, 03:19 PM
Tony Angelo is his favorite judge. My favorite judge is ERNIE FIXMER! <3 ;-) hahahahaha...

you mean mr one-more-time ?

Bebop
07-22-2009, 03:27 PM
Whys is autoblog so late on drifting

Comment posted on blog




you mean mr one-more-time ?

oh lord dont even remind me!!!!

And that now Bergenholtz is back on there. Please for the love of god run the same kit Mad Mike is running in NZ. Paint the car in your teams traditional colors on white TE37s.

teambergenholtz
07-22-2009, 03:32 PM
In all fairness,

All the judges kick *Censored**Censored**Censored*.

All the judges are all drivers of drift.

All the judges competed one way or another competitively in FD or D1.

All the judges know what is possible on a course and what is not.

All the judges are funnier than hell. (Ernie's kinda quiet but I bet with a few drinks he could be funnier than hell.)

teambergenholtz
07-22-2009, 03:38 PM
I know. This is just for 2009. Gotta promote Mazda's 2009 R3 RX8. I could not agree with you any more. Definately:

1. Kick *Censored**Censored**Censored* body kit (slammed of course)

2. Paint scheme

3. Gotta get my sponsors back and rock 5AD wheels.

ASD Team
07-22-2009, 03:44 PM
I also agree with Ron Bergenholtz. After knowing Tony Angelo for some time now, there's no way he would be anything but 100% impartial.
Although the other DA members are good friends, I believe his obvious dedication and passion for the future of drifting make this an absolute non issue. Not to mention that if you knew Tony, such a thing just isn't in his character.

It was inevitable that this question would rise from somewhere at some time, as soon as Tony Angelo started judging in Formula D. And being a team running one of the senior DA members mentioned, if we thought any such thing was a remote possibility, you'd better believe our team would cry foul the loudest. With the level of competition in Formula D being so tough, with so many good teams and drivers, I would not want our accomplishments as a team - or that of our drivers or sponsors - marked with an asterisk at the end of the season and would be the first person causing a stink.

Everyone on our team (and others I'm sure) work way too hard for the infrequent moments we get to enjoy with a solid result, to allow such a thing as biased judging tarnish the accomplishments of everyone involved.

As Ron Bergenholtz says, Tony was an instrumental part of revolutionizing Formula D judging formats this year, and for the better in my opinion. Anyone suggesting Tony Angelo is anything but impartial does not know the man and his passion for the sport.

Just my opinion...


Ian Stewart
Autosport Dynamics Inc. (ASD)

AE86_Fan
07-22-2009, 04:08 PM
in the full article it states that Hubinette was hit in his run, but yet didnt move on... i wasnt there so i dont know... but can anyone verify if that was true or not ???

Bebop
07-22-2009, 04:16 PM
in the full article it states that Hubinette was hit in his run, but yet didnt move on... i wasnt there so i dont know... but can anyone verify if that was true or not ???


I'm 80% sure that is the truth

but it didn't effect his line in anyway, so there for no points deducted.

They need to see the difference between a hit and just a little rubbage.

OldSkool510
07-22-2009, 05:19 PM
Tony Angelo will definitely be kept in check by all those associated with FD, especially his co-judges. All the DA guys are stand-up characters anyway and would only want to win it fair and square.

Brad_M
07-22-2009, 10:26 PM
agreed. So where do you all think this Autoblog author got his opinions planted? It seems like he was hanging out with a Viper a lot.

...okay, so again, where did this Autoblog author get his opinions swayed at? It wasn't at my camp.

Please do not attempt to stir up controversy by falsely accusing or insinuating that Nuformz Racing or Samuel Hubinette had anything to do with the way that this author's opinion was formed.

Thank You,
Brad Manka
Nuformz Racing Inc.

cfrost
07-23-2009, 08:23 AM
I'm just really happy that there's a panel full of real tried-and-true drifters. As tight as the drifting community is you'd have trouble finding someone credible who doesn't have a lot of friends on the field anyway.

In regards to Tony I have faith that he's the kind of guy that would give his boys a harder time than others because they're his boys, the drift alliance members seem to have a good way of pushing each other.

I would hate to see the guys out driving not get credit for the talented show of driving that they're putting on because a team-member is on the panel.

Just my non-drift-alliance-affiliated 2 cents

SSmith
07-23-2009, 09:46 AM
I'm sure FD thought about it when putting Tony on the panel.
All the usual suspects (Rhys, Dai, and Tanner) are in new cars this year, they're still making adjustments on their cars.

driftforfun
07-23-2009, 10:00 AM
Judging?
Some of you guys still believe drifting is judged?
Its semi pre-determined just like Wrestling, but its still fun as hell :D

110octane
07-24-2009, 10:13 AM
Its semi pre-determined just like Wrestling, but its still fun as hell

Really? ..........get serious.

AE86_Fan
07-24-2009, 11:59 AM
Judging?
Some of you guys still believe drifting is judged?
Its semi pre-determined just like Wrestling, but its still fun as hell :D

you must be the same douche who wrote the article. stick to wrestling, *Censored**Censored**Censored* !

driftforfun
07-24-2009, 02:32 PM
Really? ..........get serious.

Yeah I honestly think so. It cant be completely rigged since there are variables but for the most part the outcome is fixed. If you really sit back and see how many one more times they request and you will see why. How can a spectator easily determine the outcome of a match but takes the judges 2 one more times to determine a winner?
But like I said I will keep watching it and my boss will keep thinking his team has a realistic chance of wining the series.

driftforfun
07-24-2009, 02:34 PM
you must be the same douche who wrote the article. stick to wrestling, *Censored**Censored**Censored* !

No Im not the same douche. But thanks for the compliment. If I was I would have added some whores like the Hankook Viodeo!:D

Hubert Young
07-24-2009, 02:53 PM
Tony Angelo always calls it as he sees it since I knew him from day one. It's absurd that a popular blog like Autoblog.com would express such reckless comments.

110octane
07-24-2009, 05:13 PM
Yeah I honestly think so. It cant be completely rigged since there are variables but for the most part the outcome is fixed. If you really sit back and see how many one more times they request and you will see why. How can a spectator easily determine the outcome of a match but takes the judges 2 one more times to determine a winner?

Well, I guess what I was trying to say is.....YOU'RE WRONG.

I have been around drifting since 2003 and have been entwined in the inner workings of the sport since it's inception in the U.S. Having attended every FD event and for the most part being at the judges stand while the judging is going on, I can tell you you're way out in left field with your accusation.

The reason the judges decisions differ from what the crowd believes is the correct call is because the judges are seeing all the little things that are discounted to an untrained eye. This discrepancy could very well be the reason why so many think "drifting is fixed" and could potentially hold the sport back from being mainstream. But that's FD's issue and as you've seen they are still streamlining the judging system to make it more understandable for the fans.

lastly, the sport doesn't need people such as yourself trying to persuade people that it is "fixed". Please stop.

P.S. Who's your boss and what's your beef with Eddie Kim and Hankook? :confused:

gigglesnirt
07-24-2009, 05:38 PM
Good job, you just got trolled by driftforfun.

courantcom
07-25-2009, 12:03 AM
Please do not attempt to stir up controversy by falsely accusing or insinuating that Nuformz Racing or Samuel Hubinette had anything to do with the way that this author's opinion was formed.

Thank You,
Brad Manka
Nuformz Racing Inc.

I'm not at all trying to insinuate anything. I'm more trying to find out if this is how the author truly felt after his experience. Moreso, I'm also trying to find out if the author spent time with other teams.

Formula D
07-27-2009, 06:08 PM
Just a sidebar for those interested....

The data we keep at events allow us at any given time to look at a plethora of cool information on judging. From qualifying speeds of drivers and comparing those to tandem leading speeds, to what each judge scored each driver on each run in qualifying and tandem. We can see how many OMT's and what judge scored each driver in each of those OMT's. We can see how often a judge uses OMT and we can see if they use it for certain drivers. Most importantly we can see trending of how judges vote.

From those trends we can easily see from the current event all the way to the beginning of the season how each judge voted on every single qualifying and tandem score. We can very easily see if there are patterns of consistency or if one judge votes in conflict with the other judges and how often. We can see how each judge votes for each driver and we can see if a judge stands out alone while the other two voted another way. In short, we have these measures in place so we can speak with confidence and have hard data if there is an allegation made against a judge, i.e.: "Judge X only votes for guys with X tires." With our data we can look at that accusation and see if there is any validity to it. No accusations have been made to this point this year.

The Autoblog has done many stories on FD. This is not new. This writer was just describing the make-up of the series and the sport. We of course knew they were there and the context of the story. Certainly the fact that a DA member is on the judging panel is noteworthy and certainly for a media outlet. We are keenly aware of what people might say regarding certain individuals. That is why you do your due diligence and research people's feelings regarding changes on the panel and also have things in place like our data capturing that allow us to speak intelligently if any question does come in to place.

As of now, we have seen no impropriety amongst the judges. They have been pretty dang consistent. Whether or not you like that consistency or agree with it is where the subjectivity of drifting plays its most critical role.

Slapshotnerd
07-27-2009, 06:42 PM
Just a sidebar for those interested....

The data we keep at events allow us at any given time to look at a plethora of cool information on judging. From qualifying speeds of drivers and comparing those to tandem leading speeds, to what each judge scored each driver on each run in qualifying and tandem. We can see how many OMT's and what judge scored each driver in each of those OMT's. We can see how often a judge uses OMT and we can see if they use it for certain drivers. Most importantly we can see trending of how judges vote.

From those trends we can easily see from the current event all the way to the beginning of the season how each judge voted on every single qualifying and tandem score. We can very easily see if there are patterns of consistency or if one judge votes in conflict with the other judges and how often. We can see how each judge votes for each driver and we can see if a judge stands out alone while the other two voted another way. In short, we have these measures in place so we can speak with confidence and have hard data if there is an allegation made against a judge, i.e.: "Judge X only votes for guys with X tires." With our data we can look at that accusation and see if there is any validity to it. No accusations have been made to this point this year.

The Autoblog has done many stories on FD. This is not new. This writer was just describing the make-up of the series and the sport. We of course knew they were there and the context of the story. Certainly the fact that a DA member is on the judging panel is noteworthy and certainly for a media outlet. We are keenly aware of what people might say regarding certain individuals. That is why you do your due diligence and research people's feelings regarding changes on the panel and also have things in place like our data capturing that allow us to speak intelligently if any question does come in to place.

As of now, we have seen no impropriety amongst the judges. They have been pretty dang consistent. Whether or not you like that consistency or agree with it is where the subjectivity of drifting plays its most critical role.

This is a good thing!! Props to Formula D

How available is this information to teams / media if they were interested in seeing it? Any interest in releasing statistics of note at some point, maybe during the offseason when things are slow? I'm sure some of them would sound like baseball statistics, but I think that info is fun to read every now and then.

Bebop
07-27-2009, 07:00 PM
I agree, it would make great filler for anouncing.

Formula D
07-28-2009, 10:10 AM
How available is this information to teams / media if they were interested in seeing it? Any interest in releasing statistics of note at some point, maybe during the offseason when things are slow? I'm sure some of them would sound like baseball statistics, but I think that info is fun to read every now and then.

We have shown some of the data to teams who have asked, but overall statistics is something we have really been focusing on more seriously the past few years. We have accumulated most of the basic stuff (wins, how each drivers placed at all the events, etc) and some of that is built into the existing functionality of the current driver pages on the website. However, we would like it to be more in depth and archived better with different options that may include judging data as well. Something for the future.....

NNog
07-30-2009, 03:10 PM
How can a spectator easily determine the outcome of a match but takes the judges 2 one more times to determine a winner?


You said it yourself. that is the reason majority of the FD fans are not fit to be judges. These group of 3 guys get a lot of respect from their peers, although sometimes there may be a disagreement with the call but from the events i've been to seem to be very fair.