different drive train advantages in motorsports

[Tioki]

I know the primary drive for drifting is FR but, what are the advantages to each, FR, AWD, and (unfortunately) FF?

I have come up with some answers to this:

FR - All out rear wheel power, this drive type is the easiest to put sideways and easier to control than the others. Power to the back wheels and great brake balance are key for this type.

AWD - One of my personal favs. Great for rally inspired racing and get the power to all wheels, keeping most from slipping. This makes it harder to drift and takes time to learn to control. If you like cruising in the mountain roads, gravel, dirt, and snow this is the type for you.

FF - Even though I own a car of FF drive type (94 Accord) I'm really wanting to sell and buy AWD, but anyway. This drive type is all about the pulling of the front tires. The more grip the better the car will be. Putting this type sideways is tough and even harder to control.

So, I think, it narrows down to this in order

Drifting: FR, AWD, FF
Rally: AWD, FR, FF
well, I can't really see a reason for FF cars but you guys can pick it. Im thinking about getting a Subaru RS 2.5 but, I'm wondering if I can push it to put it sideways and still have that rally feel?

[Drift For Food]

Well this is a nice little post. I started on fwd in an '89 Buick Lesabre, moved to very underpowered rwd in an '88 Ford Ranger, and now I'm about where you want to be, in an awd '02 Subaru Forester(think wagon version of Impreza but not outback form, lol).

I come up like you, rwd is still my favorite and a best choice for drifting. The control you have can't be matched by either of other platforms. Now, notice I say control and not ease. In fact, the easiest car to drift or drive fast is an awd. You are more easily able to manipulate the drift angle with steering. However, you lose some control types like power over, maybe shift lock since it does it with both the front and rear.

Under throttle, it behaves a lot like a fwd before you get it sliding. However, after all 4 wheels are sliding, it's the easiest to control, just gun it and steer. You can still brake or e-brake to change drift angles, but when you lay on the throttle, the rear just doesn't come out, both do. There's very little countersteer if any as well. It's all low angle straight driving pretty much. If you throw the rear out too far, you still have counter steer, but usually you're turning into the corner a little to maintain a drift(in stock form).

Fwd, not much advantage for drifting. For the most part, it's the savest car to drive normally. That's why it's the most popular. Still, you do have braking and weight shift forms of drifting, i.e. Braking, e-brake, and feint. It's a good platform to learn braking, e-brake, and feint techniques because the rear end will never get away from you. You can add throttle or coutner steer to bring the front out. It's safe and can be fun. However, no other techniques can be used, and it's slow on the exit.

As far as your awd desire, I'd say go for it. It's a little different, and I'd personally prefer rwd, but it's fast and very controllable. It just doesn't look as pretty, lol, or does it? For those who haven't drifted awd, it may be weird seeing the front tires straight sliding around a corner, lol. Just don't expect high angles and a locked counter steer. It doesn' t drive that way...unless you threw out the rear too hard, lol.

I'd say go for it if you were a rally type guy too. You don't have as much of a tendency of the rear end wanting to wander around under heavy throttle on loose stuff, well none actually. It feels safer under heavy throttle. I'm a Minnesota guy, so I have winter to handle. Awd is nice for this as far as getting through the deep stuff and being able to take off on the highway from an icy stop. I'm a gravel guy too. Besides less rear end wander, there's not much more of a benifit on gravel, a little more power to the ground and speed around corners maybe.

If you plan on getting an RS, one thing you may want to concider is a rear swaybar. As my Forester is, the front/rear spring rates seem to be pretty good for balance and neutrality(a hair understeer). But, when you get on pavement and the front sway bar kicks in, you get a ton of understeer. A rear swaybar should even that out under higher traction situations. Mine's still stock, so I can't tell you what to buy. However, that is one of my first upgrades to the car when I start working.

[mranlet]

...ug...

-MR

[mranlet]

well...

Drift For Food - do you have any pics or vids of you drifting your Forester? Is it manual?

that's all for now... I'll be back

-MR

[malcolm]

ok, gotta break this down further...

definition: moment of inertia - basically determines how fast an object can accelerate in a circular motion (ie. think of a figure skater. when he/she has their arms out, they spin slowly. when their arms are in, they spin MUCH faster).

FF - space efficient, and safe for the inexperienced driver. that's it.

FR (front engine, rear drive) - usually decent balance front to rear, but sometimes nose-heavy. Good for drifting because it has a high moment of inertia. basically, that just means when it starts to spin, it spins slower, and is thus easier to control in a drift. It has a high moment of inertia because of the heavy engine way up front, and a heavy gas tank way out back (like the skater with their arms out).

MR (midengine, rear drive) - very good for racing, tricky to drift. low moment of inertia (spins faster), therefore it likes to snap out very fast. It has a low moment of inertia because all the weight is toward the centre (like the skater with arms in). this, of course, is good for road racing, touge, etc, because turn-in is really fast. That's why all F1 cars, most LMP cars, and all the Group B rally cars are/were mid-engine (the only reason why we see front engine rally cars now is because that's what the road cars are... and it's impractical to have an AWD midengine car for the road. back in the group b days, road cars didn't matter, so they went with the best layout).

RR (rear engine, rear drive) - only in Porsches and older VW's, but still a good way to drift. VERY easy to initiate a drift. Just need to let off the throttle in a higher speed corner, and the tail will come out. Braking drifts are quite easy to initiate too. All that weight at the back is just waiting to step out.

AWD - decent for drifting, but you have to use more braking, feint and handbrake techniques to get the car sideways. I find that when you drift an AWD car, you need to keep a constant throttle, and you adjust your drift angle with the steering (watch the JUN EVO at the Hockenheim drift competition to see what I mean), as opposed to FR cars, where most of your steering mid-drift is done with throttle modulation. AWD is fun to drift, but you'll need a fair amount of power to drift AWD on dry asphalt. Also, AWD still varies with engine placement, such as front, mid, or rear engine. ie. front engine will still step out slower than midengine, and rear engine will still have much better braking drift initiations...


did that help at all?

[Tioki]

Thanks for all of your imput, it has helped me alot and yes, I am a rally type. From the first time I saw that WRC Subaru car take on those European and Non-US mountain roads I was mesmerized at the skill of these drivers.

I believe if you're doing a tough touge run on the mountains the AWD has the advantage over anything merely because that is what this car was built for.

Anyway, once I get some more money, sell my car, I might be able to convince my parents to let me have one

[SaintDrift]

Actually FF would be a stepup from FR in rally. It pulls better in dirt, snow, whatever. Of course that does you no good since we all mainly drive on asphalt.

[Drift For Food]

I'd like to get some vids/pics of me drifting. I just need to get my bro to come with me and take the video camera. It's an 8mm so it's not good with motion(in car). He could to some corner shots or a "quick" (2x, 4x, 8x) drive through the routes I take. I could try some onboard too, see how it turns out. I'd really like a solid state type where I didn't have to worry about vibration and shaking messing up the picture. I'm getting comfortable with the Forester now too, so I can push it more. And, yes, it is a manual. I wouldn't have it any other way.

[malcolm]

Actually FF would be a stepup from FR in rally. It pulls better in dirt, snow, whatever.

uh... no.

think about the physics of it.

acceleration - weight transfers to the rear. more weight is therefore on the rear tires. that means more traction at the rear. more traction = faster acceleration. advantage: FR

cornering - when you are drifting through a corner, since the car is sideways, more weight will be at the rear of the car. the weight likes to transfer to the outside rear tire in a drift. advantage: FR (also, you don't have to worry about torque-steer on the exit of a corner with an FR car...)

braking - pretty much equal, if you lock the front tires under braking in a front wheel drive car, the engine stalls. when that happens, you need to let off the brakes to refire the engine, and with most cars, this needs to be done before you can downshift again. Not the case with a rear-drive car though...

before AWD came out, why do you think Ford, Lancia, Toyota, Nissan, etc, etc, etc, all had rear wheel drive? Lancia was the last 2-wheel drive rallycar in the Group B era, and on a good day, it could almost equal the AWD cars, and sometimes even beat them. Guess what? it was rear drive.

the only reason why manufacturers aren't rallying rear drive cars is because they want to sell their little Ford Pumas and Peugeot 106's that have front drive.

[malcolm]

oh, quick little trivia question while we're on this topic:

what was the make of the first AWD/4WD to win a world rally championship points event? bonus points for which rally it was...

[Drift For Food]

Wow, nice question, man...I have no clue. I don't know what was and wasn't 4wd back then.

[malcolm]

little hint... it's NOT an Audi.

:O

[Drift For Food]

Is it something that isn't normally 4wd to the general public?

[malcolm]

it's totally available to the public... and get this, it's a domestic!



*shock and awe from the audience...*

[Tioki]

Ok, the first AWD to be in rally, hmm...

Even though I dont know the answer I'm going to narrow it down, its american. Puegot gone, audi isnt it, nissan - no, subaru - no, mitsubishi - no, VW - prob not,

American car... american car... can't think.

Well, ford COULD be it, with the cosworth's but... I thinks it was earlier.

Its after the series B. I just can't think of it. Now its annoying my brain.

I would have to say Ford then.