Heavy braking w/o ABS

[Xise]

Post Preview:
I was wondering if anyone had any tips for applying heavy braking for transfering weight without locking the calipers and ending up understeering massively. I can usually tell when my brakes are about to lock but by the time i realize it it is already too late to compensate by letting off the brake (even though letting off suddenly also sometimes locks the brakes).

This happens especially in the rain and snow, plus i wear the pads out fairl quickly, replaced about every month. I have really been practicing Braking drifts lately now that i have my new swaybars and my brakes have been taking a beating. Also, I am not sure if anyone else has this problem in their car but the brake pedal and gas pedal are very close to each other in my car, and the gas pedal is also right up agains the inner console.





I sometimes have trouble doing heal-toe braking, it is more like heel-instep braking. but when i do it right , it's like instant oversteer. I can only do it about 3/10 times, I know when I am doing it wrong when I hear that horrible shift lock noise (I am sure some of you know what I am talking about) before that I used to do shift lock, but it was destroying my clutch, you could smell burning clutch as soon as i stopped or got out. I am still a beginer and my exits are hardly ever smooth.

[ACDSupra7]

Never suddenly let off the brakes, that's gonna cause the weight to transfer rearward very quickly. Instead, practice pumping the brakes to avoid locking them.

[Ghost of Duluth]

Take those bomb pedal covers off and you might have some more room. The best thing you can do for your pedals is to get some skateboard grip tape and cover them with that. MUCH better grip that those pep boys specials and saves weight too.

[ACDSupra7]

Originally posted by Ghost of Duluth
The best thing you can do for your pedals is to get some skateboard grip tape and cover them with that.

Thanks Duluth, I think I'll give that try.

[DoriFuta-]

Is this a FF or FR?

My peddals look the exact same as in how close they are to eachother so i know what you are talking bout.

As for Heel toeing it, i usualy just put the ball of my foot or my big toe on the brake and then rock my foot back and forth from the gas to the brake (while keeping the brake compressed).
Depending on how sensitive your gas is this will work for the most part, and it's the only real way you can 'heel toe' when the gas peddal is so close to the center console.

[CRASHDRIVE]

It's a BMW and im guessing it's a 3series.

Like ghost said, take off the padels. use smaller ones.

and for locking. Dont ride the brake too long. If you want to transfer the weight let go of the gas first without pressing the clutch and then brake. That is equivalent to a hard brake. But you might have to slow down sooner than before. It will take practice

good luck.

[GRiDRaceTech]

E21 320i/iS.

Where to start...

First things first: You need to learn how to threshold brake. In my e30, it's quite easy. If your pedal feel isn't up to par, replace your brake lines. If budget is a problem, just bleed your brakes FULLY and put in some Ate SuperBlue fluid. Just practice slowing the car quickly without locking the brakes... if you do, let up braking SLIGHTLY. A full lift will produce zero braking... which is not something we want.

Second: If you have to brake quite hard to transfer weight, you're doing something wrong. Maybe you should try a combination braking/feint maneuver. To need new pads every month is absolutely excessive.

Third: I use the left side of my right foot for braking, and the right side of the same foot for blipping the throttle. I wear a size 9.5 narrow. (I was blessed with racer's feet.) Your comment about heel-toeing it right and resulting in instant oversteer is puzzling, to say the least. A heel-toe downshift is one which is very smooth and results in seamless downshifting while applying heavy braking. If you think intant oversteer is perfect, then you're confusing your terms, very wrong, or headed into the actual corner whilst braking/off-throttle. See my posts in this thread for correct definitions of heel-toeing and shift-locking. They're at the bottom of the third page and throughout the fourth. If you're still having trouble... get good at double-clutch downshifts.

If you can elaborate on exactly what you're doing, that'd be great in helping me tell you what is wrong.

[Xise]

Thanks GRiD for your advice, what I do when entering a corner is first let up off of the gas pedal and let the flywheel lower the rpms first and then i brake hard usually i also push the clutch also (force of habbit) after i think i am at about the right speed for my turn in I then let off the brake then press it again with the tip of my right foot and hit the gas with my heel on the same foot while also pushing in the clutch and downshifting and then trying to match revs and easy the clutch out as quickly and smoothly as i can to avoid locking the wheels. I am probably not experienced enough to be doing this technique correctly. I am just trying to finally ween myself off using my ebrake for every corner.

that is mostly what I have been trying, and if you have ever driven an E21 you can almost always correct understeer by simply giving a bit more gas while kicking out the clutch once or twice.

as for those pictures, thats not my car, I just posted it because it is the same body style and the pedals on all E21s are like that.

[malcolm]

something that will help is just not downshifting. forget downshifting. Approach the corner in second gear, and just worry about braking and steering. You need to get a better feel of your car before you start to drift on a more advanced level (ie. not using the handbrake)

Now, first, just start braking heavily, and go through the corner. Work up your speed, until you feel like you're going at about 90% or so. (make absolute SURE that this is a relatively slow 2nd gear corner, with LOTS of visibility. if it's 3rd gear, it's too fast.) Brake in a straight line, let off, and turn in. Do this five times or so, or until you feel 100% comfortable.

After you get the feel of that, start to "trail-brake". You aren't drifting yet... Remember, when you start to turn the wheel, you need to ease up on the brake, or else you will begin to either push or slide. Think of a piece of string attached to the bottom of the wheel to the brake pedal. If you turn the wheel, you need to ease up on the brake. Get the feel of what it is like to be able to continue braking into the corner without sliding the car. Again, do this five times or so, or until you feel totally comfortable with trail-braking.

Now, we start to drift. When you start to turn in, ease off the brake, but a little less than before... (ie. you're a bit firmer on the brakes than before on turn-in). Try that a few times... It may be enough to initiate a drift. If it doesn't, when you ease off the brakes, try giving them a ***LIGHT*** stab just after turn in. Just keep working at it until you get it right.

Remember, it takes time... and sometimes it's better to get the feel of your car when it grips before you start drifting. Remember, all the top Japanese drifters started racing long before they drifted, and that's what is giving them such an advantage over americans. Get the feel of your car, and then start to drift it.

[GRiDRaceTech]

malcolm- Slightly off-topic but a good post nonetheless. More technique than an explanation of his problems.

Xise- Here's the proper way to go about it; practice on a long, straight stretch of road not normally traveled. Begin braking, and as you brake, clutch in, downshift, blip the throttle a decent amount (remember, this is to get you used to it, might as well give it a little more revs than needed, provided you don't bounce it off the rev-limiter.) and clutch-out quickly but gently. You'll feel the car want to jump forward against the brakes... that way you know you gave it too much gas. Now, try it again: begin braking, clutch in, downshift, blip slightly less, clutch out. If you're feathering the clutch, (i.e. letting it out verrrry easily) then you didn't blip hard enough... you shouldn't have to worry about locking the rear tires due to differences in shaft speeds. Rev-match every downshift from now on, whether it's slowing for a red light, stop sign or corner. Every rev-match brings you a little closer to perfection.
Braking, clutch, downshift, blip, clutch. Braking, clutch, downshift, blip, clutch.
Braking, clutch, downshift, blip, clutch.

[Drift For Food]

First, how long have you had the car? I ask because heavy braking is mainly an issue of learning the car. It just takes practice to know how far you can push the car. In time you'll learn the limits. I've been driving 9 years without ABS and oh so prefer it that way, gravel, snow, ice, oh yeah! My new car has ABS and I hate it.

Braking drift shouldn't be as hard as you describe it. Try to initiate the drift slightly differently. Steer in harder while applying a little less brake. This means you'll have to slow down a little earlier as well, but you'll also brake a little into the corner. If your rear end is quite stuborn, try to force it out. Use a little feint with the braking or shift lock, blip the throttle a couple times, e-brake, whatever. Try different methods that will get the rear end to brake loose. I'm a big fan of the braking/feint mix. It'll get any car drifting. Simply adjust the mixture of each to suit the corner/speed/etc...

[Xise]

I have owned my car for about 3 almost 4 years now. I know that car in and out. I only was asking for tips on not locking my breaks because sometimes when I have to make quick motions with my feet and I sometimes brake to hard and then overcompensate for my mistake by letting up off the brake too much and that can cause understeer or worse. But yes I also hate abs brakes, I hate that choppy feel when braking heavily. I did learn something new however I noticed that when you let off the brake completely my car became very unstable and when i applied more brake and steered in the opposite dirrection the car would quickly change it's angle to almost the complete opposite without clutch kicking. and if you immediately countersteer you can then control that slide also. I tried that out a bunch of times in the parking lot I use and It is actually quite easy, I think I may be ready to try doing a continuous drift around this one S corner I know of on wakefeild street in West Warwick.

I am not sure if any of you have driven a pre abs bavarian car, most of you probably drive newer japanese cars so maybe you can't fully grasp what my car is doing under heavy braking. I am still using the the oem calipers (rebuilt). And my car actually has drum brakes on the back, which behave differently from disk brakes.

Anyway, although I may be a newbie to this fourum I am not a newbie to drifting, maybe to some of you I still am but I have been doing it for almost a year now, many more if you count when I had my first car and was pulling the ebrake around corners before I knew what drifting was.

[Drift For Food]

I was raised without ABS and the disk/drum brake combination. You've had your car for quite some time. You should really be at the point where you know that car well enought to brake right at the limit, every time. I owned a Lesabre for 3 years, and I got to the point where I could push that car right at the edge all the time if I wanted reguardless of where I was driving. I'm one to push my cars a lot though. That's also the first car I started to toy with drifting...almost exactly a year ago.

Running a big, fwd, automatic, foot type e-brake car, I was limited to feint and braking drift techniques. That's what I started on. Feint and braking to this day still remain two of my favorite and most used methods to initiate a drift.

Towards the end of the time I owned that car, I put new tires on, a different brand/model than I was running previously. This change required some readdaptation time to the new limits, stickier tires. I could takes corners far fast, brake harder, and had a bit more body roll than usually which created some new weight shift feelings probably from some of the suspension maxxing out, lol. I say this because you're tweaking your car. You'll have to relearn the various limits. Changes in tires, suspension, engine, brakes, etc. all require a time to relearn the limitation boundaries of the car. If you've been tweaking your car for drifitng, this may be why you're having trouble with braking. 2-3 months of readjustment should get you back to where you were. Otherwise, 3-4 years pushing the same car with no change should get you to a state of euphoria with that car. It is a part of you at that point. It does what you think, and you know what it will do before you do it.

Back to the not locking up part, I think you may just want to change how you take corners a little. Braking drift doesn't really take a lot of braking to do. You'll actually bleed off most of the speed before the corner, not into the corner. This may be your biggest problem. Braking hard through a corner isn't the right technique...if that's what you're doing. Brake before the corner, come in slightly fast, and brake lightly while steering into the corner. This will get weight forward loosen the rear end so it can slide out. If not, steer a little more into the corner and/or brake a little harder. Also, it may not break loose immediately and may need a second to get the rear end to come out. As you increase steering and braking, you'll eventually hit the traction limit of the tires. You can't doing anything beyond this point. You either need to change techniques or change the car.

If you find it that difficult to break the rear end loose while braking drift, you may want to consider:
tire changes(sticky up front, slippery in rear)
tire pressure changes(low front pressure, high rear pressure)
suspension changes(soft front springs/small front swaybar, stiff rear springs, big rear swaybar)
or other drifting techniques(feint, shiftlock, clutch kick, e-brake...anything to break the rear end loose or help shift weight/induce a drift).

[malcolm]

drift for food, I agree with 95% of what you suggest... but I would recommend shift-lock for snow and gravel, and maybe wet asphalt, unless you really don't care about your drivetrain, and don't mind replacing parts often. Given that, think twice about clutch-kicking as well... the handbrake will do the same thing, for the most part, and it won't send a huge jolt through the drivetrain. I clutch kick in the wet, but it's not really a kick, but I just let the revs drop a bit, and let the clutch out ***just*** quick enough to induce a drift, and no more.

I just shudder when I hear of guys just kicking at their clutches, and I cringe even more when I see video of it. Even Tsuchiya, in the Drift Bible, says that shift-locking is not what he would recommend in the dry, but claims he was only doing it because "they" wanted it in the video.

[PRC]

what brand of brake pads do you use? that really affects the way a car brakes. In a drift car, I tend to go with an aggressive compund in the front.