Making a 20b out of 2 13b engines.

[Spec]

I have 3 13b in my garage that aren't used right now. So on my free time, I was thinking of making a 20b NA. Since I never seen a 20b, I have only a slight idea of what I need.

Maybe driftXtreem can help me.

I have heard about people doing that, is it possible? I guess I would need the Cosmo distributor and ecentric shaft. Since I am keeping the same engines, I dont need to change tranny, and I'll go with carbs to make it easier to hook up (limit electronic problems). I'll need to change engines mounts to. What should I be looking for? How is the ecentric shaft on the 20b? Am I forgetting something?

(I'm sure I am)

Spec.

[fyhr]

err, now i dont know what kind of enginebuildingskills you have, but WHY oh WHY try building a 20B engine, selling 2 of you're 13B's and using the rest of the money it would have cost you to build them together should be able to buy you a proper one?

if you do have the skills to build the engine, why not go for a 4-rotor? shouldn't be harder since you could use the existing eccentric shafts?

[driftxtreem]

the 20b has two center housings and in therory they are bouth 13b parts but I have never seen the eccentric from a 20b installed like that. I do know a guy that built a 4 rotar and did the machining for the eccentric him self. I havnt pulled mine apart to see if they would interchange. Heres a pic of a 20b

[driftxtreem]

Originally posted by fyhr
err, now i dont know what kind of enginebuildingskills you have, but WHY oh WHY try building a 20B engine, selling 2 of you're 13B's and using the rest of the money it would have cost you to build them together should be able to buy you a proper one?

if you do have the skills to build the engine, why not go for a 4-rotor? shouldn't be harder since you could use the existing eccentric shafts?

The four rotar requires a two peice eccentric shaft or you will not be able to assemble the engine. They are not off the shelf parts and are far from cheep. Yea the four rotar is the way to go. Dynamic out put 600 hp n/a and 900 turboed on 100 oct more than enough to drift. Top Fuel here in Japan had one for sale like the price of a new house this was there power specs. I have a pic will post it later.

[driftxtreem]

heres a cosmo

[Spec]

Ummmm, ok.


I dont want a Cosmo engine because they only come with turbo and automatic transmission. I want to keep my tanny to limit costs instaed of adapting a manual transmission on it.
Would I be able to only use the ecentric shatf of a 20b? How are the rotors positioned on a 20b? In a 13b they are only opposed, so how is the third one positionned compared to the 2 others?
I will make a custome intake with carbs so there's no problem intake wise.

All I need to know is if I'd be ok with the 20b ecentric shaft with the center housings and rotor housings I have now.

DriftXtreem, if I pay you with paypal, could you send me a used ecentric shaft of a 20b? I cant seem to find one here. All I could find here were 20b complete engines with TT and auto tranny. I dont want a turbo 20b, I want it NA and because the compression of a turbo rotary is very low, I cant use that engine and I have to make one myself if I want it NA.

Is it that simple? What am I forgetting?

Spec.

[driftxtreem]

Originally posted by Spec
Ummmm, ok.


I dont want a Cosmo engine because they only come with turbo and automatic transmission. I want to keep my tanny to limit costs instaed of adapting a manual transmission on it.
Would I be able to only use the ecentric shatf of a 20b? How are the rotors positioned on a 20b? In a 13b they are only opposed, so how is the third one positionned compared to the 2 others?
I will make a custome intake with carbs so there's no problem intake wise.

All I need to know is if I'd be ok with the 20b ecentric shaft with the center housings and rotor housings I have now.

DriftXtreem, if I pay you with paypal, could you send me a used ecentric shaft of a 20b? I cant seem to find one here. All I could find here were 20b complete engines with TT and auto tranny. I dont want a turbo 20b, I want it NA and because the compression of a turbo rotary is very low, I cant use that engine and I have to make one myself if I want it NA.

Is it that simple? What am I forgetting?

Spec.

The back of the 13b and the 20b are the same if you want manule use your parts. on mine I went with the Ogura twin *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored* clutch and had to get the auto counterweight and bolts to put it on oh yea and a 55 mm socket to get the old one off. like I said I havent pulled mine apart to see where to rotars sit as to the 13b but you will need one more center housing that you dont have. And the eccentric shaft I would have to got to Masda to get a price. For a good used one you may have to but the engine to get it anyway. I looked at Top fuels site but nothing on there 4 rotar you can look and see what they get out of 13bs for power its in Japanese but just click and look at the pics and dyno readings. ill keep an eye out for the shaft but dont get your hopes up
http://www.pac-gate.co.jp/muramatsu/index.htm

[Spec]

So I need another counter weight or I can use the one I have now? And do you have crap yards where you are at? I mean, I could buy a dead 20b just to get the shaft. Or even beter, you could buy the engine, dismantle it, see how it is made, keep the parts and send me the shaft.
Or, second scenario, I buy the 20b TT here, and bolt on the end of the engine I have one the one I buy and the tranny will fit perfectly? Is that right?

Thanks!


Spec.

[Spec]

But for the second scenario, I will need the ecu of the cosmo if it's turbo.....

Nope, on second thought, I dont want the 20c TT. I want a 20b NA. I need that shaft.

Why do you sat I will need more center housings? I need 3 rotor housings and 2 center housing.....right? That's what I have.

Spec.

[driftxtreem]

Originally posted by Spec
But for the second scenario, I will need the ecu of the cosmo if it's turbo.....

Nope, on second thought, I dont want the 20c TT. I want a 20b NA. I need that shaft.

Why do you sat I will need more center housings? I need 3 rotor housings and 2 center housing.....right? That's what I have.

Spec.

Look at the pic I posted do you see the center housings on has the oil filler the other has none this may be were they pull the shaft and also one more thing oil injecters what do you do for those a 13b is equiped for two. You should be able to bolt your trannie to the 20b the same as you would the13b. You did make a good point with the counterwaight I dont know if they are the same a 20b and a 13b. Mine already had it for the auto and my clutch pack went right on. Many many things to consider. You say you want to keep it n/a how about puting your n/a rotars and housings on the 20b you should have the compresion you want. and look at the intake on the 20b you could fab your carbs to it easy.

[Spec]

Yea..I thought of putting my rotors directly in the 20b, but the 20b costs 4000$ for the engine....quite much for so many scrap parts and unused turbos.
So if I am not mistaken, I could only shave of a bit of the counter weight since it will be a triple rotor and not a double. A triple rotor should use a lighter counter weight right? Do you have pics of the counter weight on the 20b so I can compare it to mine? As for the center housing, I can always just jam the oil gauge shut on one of the center housings.
What about the metering pump? How is it on the 20b? I need to shoot up oil on the 3 set of rings.....sigh...

Spec.

[prodigy]

Man, kudos to you spec and to you driftxtreme. I was scared of even buying an FC for I feared the rotary.

[driftxtreem]

Originally posted by Spec
Yea..I thought of putting my rotors directly in the 20b, but the 20b costs 4000$ for the engine....quite much for so many scrap parts and unused turbos.
So if I am not mistaken, I could only shave of a bit of the counter weight since it will be a triple rotor and not a double. A triple rotor should use a lighter counter weight right? Do you have pics of the counter weight on the 20b so I can compare it to mine? As for the center housing, I can always just jam the oil gauge shut on one of the center housings.
What about the metering pump? How is it on the 20b? I need to shoot up oil on the 3 set of rings.....sigh...

Spec.

Spec I still think you need that center from the 20b to assembe and dissasemble the block the three rotar is a one peice shaft if im right and I think there is more to it than shaving alittle off got the counter weight. Look at this pick you can see that this center is not uniformly spaced to the first two from the rear.

[Spec]

Damn.....you're right....shlt. Center housing on the right is really not the same size.

What about the metering pump? Does it hook up like in the FC with 1 additional nosel?
If you ever can get the ecentric shaft of a 20b, could you try to find that center housing at the same time?
Is the oil cooler the same size in the 20b?
I think I'll buy that 20b and switch rotors with the ones I have now....unless....Is the 20b as unreliable as the 13bTT of an FD? If not I might just go and buy the engine and switch the rear of the engine to fit my tranny on it. FC3S.org already have engine mounts to fit it in so I wont have to make custom ones...
The problem is that it doesn't come with the ECU. If you can get it, can you quote me a price? (Dont worry, I wont flame you , if I find one cheaper, I'll just buy it elsewear.)
Do you think that the trany can take 350hp? That's what the 20b puts out right?
Does the 20b have boost valves from exhaust?
How many cats does it have stock?
Am I forgetting something in your opinion?

From what I know now compared to this morning, I think I'm better of buying the 20b and rebuilding it fully with 3mm apex seals, new rings and all new gaskets, seals and corner seals.

I think I'm looking at something around 7500$ CAD engine in car. What do you think?
4000$ engine with twin turbos
1200$ for all gasket and seals
500$ (I think) used ECU
1000$ Front mount intercooler
the rest for additionnal charges that always pop up.

Sorry for all the questions but it's a freakin big project and I dont wanna get squeezed anywhere. I'd rather do preventive troubleshooting than being stuck in the middle.

Oh yea, and DriftXtreem, use punctuation please, it's hard as hell making sense out of your posts.


Spec.

[driftxtreem]

Spec heres what i got for you and sorry about the puncuation, HS drop out. Any ways the metering pump is different but it hits the housings the same.
The housings say 20b but are identical to the 13b in looks, not sur of fit.
The 20b has two oil coolers I am using the same FD oilcoolers for my swap.
The fc might bolt up to the 20b back plate and you can use the 20b counterweight.
The 20b engine mount will fit the Fd but I dont now about the FC you may need to fabricate something.
The ECU should be no problem from the scrap yard.
And the 20b is rated at 280 ps from the factrory stock. That is rw power so the engine will have more BHP.
What do you meen by boost valves? BOVs?
There is just one cat into one pipe and a crossover exaust with two tips factory.
The apex seals 2mm ceramics would be fine, and a bridgport if you can do that.
If you can find a 20b with less than 50000 kph you should be good to go with that. but a rebuild is alway better if its on the ground and you have the money.
One other note the cosmo also came with a 13btt and it looks simular when you buy ask for a half cut and you should have all you need.
The pricing you have shoud cover all your parts and get you on the road.
And a little prventitive matinace will always be better than the head ache of pulling the engine out to repair.