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How to hold AWD drift?

This is a discussion on How to hold AWD drift? within the DRIFTING Technique Forum forums, part of the DRIFTING Technique category; I just started to drift my tsi, I can get the rear out but can't hold it there. Is this ...

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Old 12-18-2003, 07:29 PM   #1
jsigone
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How to hold AWD drift?

I just started to drift my tsi, I can get the rear out but can't hold it there. Is this due to lack of power or lack of enough weight being shifted fast enough or combonation of both? I use the fient technique to start the drift. I'm new to drifting other then *Censored**Censored**Censored* draggin my GST around. New to AWD as well.
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Old 12-18-2003, 07:50 PM   #2
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Re: How to hold AWD drift?

Quote:
Originally posted by jsigone
I just started to drift my tsi, I can get the rear out but can't hold it there. Is this due to lack of power or lack of enough weight being shifted fast enough or combonation of both? I use the fient technique to start the drift. I'm new to drifting other then *Censored**Censored**Censored* draggin my GST around. New to AWD as well.
The STI have a great traction control system. They call this an Active Control System (generic name for it, i think they call it something else). When the system notice that a side of the wheels are loosing traction, it will transfer the appropriate power to the needed wheels while will "Snap-Back" to grip.

So, WRX's are hard to drift. I have a clip of an old WRX drifting. They modd it and made it only Rear-Wheel.
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Old 12-18-2003, 08:03 PM   #3
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i'm pretty sure my talon doens't have an electronically controlled rear diff. I know I have a viscous LSD back there.
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Old 12-18-2003, 08:06 PM   #4
J-BloodAE86
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hahaha crashdrive, TSI not STI!!

a tip i learned, dont countersteer as much as you normally would, the front wheels pull the car out of the drift.
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Old 12-18-2003, 08:46 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by J-BloodAE86
hahaha crashdrive, TSI not STI!!

a tip i learned, dont countersteer as much as you normally would, the front wheels pull the car out of the drift.
ha ha...i dont know alot about Talons and Eclipses.. ha ha..

i totally though it was a typo.. ha ha..

i stand correct.. i'll take it like a man.
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Old 12-18-2003, 09:25 PM   #6
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lol thats funny crash

umm i would say enter teh turns at a higher rate of speed should help to carry drift GL
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Old 12-18-2003, 09:27 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by s13/350z
lol thats funny crash

umm i would say enter teh turns at a higher rate of speed should help to carry drift GL
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Old 12-18-2003, 09:44 PM   #8
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oh yeah!.

when in doubt, Pull the E-brake

always a good thing
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Old 12-18-2003, 11:30 PM   #9
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so more speed? or more aggressive fient?
I can understand the less countersteer, I'll give that a try.
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Old 12-19-2003, 08:58 AM   #10
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Ahhh...

Welcome to the world of AWD drifting my friend. You have now completed step 1 - finding that every single AWD system in the world is completely different from any other system...

I drifted my AWD 91 Legacy Turbo for years, and it's no easy thing (IMO, much harder than the RWD kind). My AWD was rear biased, so there were things that I could do to hold the drift since the rear wheels were always getting power. However, in a front-biased system like the 4G63T's, your rears will only get power when the fronts are slipping, as I'd imagine you know by now.

Part of All-wheel-drifting is exactly what the name says: all of the wheels drift. If you watch AWD rally cars you don't usually see the front wheels following the "best line" on the course like RWD cars do (for the most part). A lot of the time the midpoint of an AWD car will be following the best line but the fronts and rears will all be spinning and the steering is toggled back and fourth between almost aimed straight and almost fully counter-steered. This coupled with the insanely high rates of entrance speed helps the car to stay sliding through the turn rather than grinding to a hald on gravel. J-blood is right about not turning the steering as much as you feel like you should - sometimes only half of a full counter-steer will be plenty to keep you sliding and a full steer will be too much and will whip you back around to the other side.

Although AWD's purpose is to prevent cars from losing traction, you can really use it to your advantage to keep the wheels spinning. If you recall the "traction circle" that you learned in performance-driving kindergarden, you'll remember that the East and West directions represent steering right and left and the North and South directions represent acceleration and braking (respectively). Now, to make a car lose traction, the load on the tires must exceed their ability in any one of those directions or as a combination of two (or more, but that's a bit more advanced).

Let's consider 2 cars with the same specifications, car A having RWD and car B having AWD. When accelerating from a stand-still, car A will be sending 100% of the power to the rear wheels only. Granted that car A has the ability to load the tires beyond their capacity, it will break the traction circle and spin the rear wheels. If car B were to send 100% of its power to the driveline, it would momentarily go 100% to the front wheels (in the TSi's case) and break the traction circle causing wheel slipage. The slip sensor will detect this and tell the transmission to take up to 50% from the front and send it to the rear. When it does this, the load on the front tires will move to inside the traction circle and the rear wheels' traction circle will look exactly like the front's (ignoring weight and transfer). Simple, right?

Now imagine when a car is going around a turn and power is being applied while there is a constant latteral load on the traction circles of all tires on both cars, during a left turn for example (meaning that the work done on the tires is along the East-West line on the left side). While cornering at half of the capacity of the tires, car A can apply enough power to exceed the traction circle of the rear wheels (the work done by the tires is outside of the traction circle on the upper left side). Meanwhile, the front tires will stay at their half-capacity of lateral load without ever knowing what is happening to the rears. From my unserstanding, once a driver counter steers, the direction of lateral load on the front tires is reversed (to the right in a left-turn drift) and they are now working to prevent the car from going off of the track to the left - there's a split second in a feint where the rear is sliding and the fronts are pointed straight just after the body roll has passed neutral. In our left turn, if the driver does a power-over and applies just enough power for the rears to break traction, he can keep the work asked of the tires just beyond the traction circle and maintain control of it, but if he applies too much power the tires will be overwhelmed and the driver will lose control -- this is why higher-powered drift cars need to have the power modulated in order to keep control and keep from spinning while lower power cars can be floored and stay in control.

Ok, same left turn example with car B and AWD. If the driver applies power in a turn, it may cause the front wheels to exceed the traction circle and transfer power to the rears, which in turn brings both front and rear back within the load limits of the tires, since half of the power is going to the front wheels and half to the back wheels. This would essentially be like driving car A in the same manner but with half the power at the driver's disposal (65hp for a Nissan 240SX, probably not enough to exceed even the stock tires). Even if your TSi has 200hp to the wheels, each set of wheels will see only half of that during a drift, and to get it to slide you either have to be turning harder or going faster to have the work exceed the capabilities of the tires (or use less-sticky tires). Rhys Millen can do some power-overing because his rally car has a whole lot of hp.

Unless you have tons of power, All-Wheel Drifting techniques require knowledge of vehicle dynamics, your drivetrain, your AWD system, your traction circle (the best drivers are subliminally imagining all 4 traction circles of all 4 wheels all at the same time all the time). I find that the majority of the time all wheel drifting is spent trying to find ways to "trick" the computer into giving more power to the rear wheels than they can handle. Rocking the steering wheel between neutral and counter-steered one direction is a pretty good way to keep constant load on the outside tires and to find the best steering angle.

You may also want to try doing a moment of very hard braking during the moment of the feint that has the front wheels pointed straight just before turn-in, and then applying maximum power through the apex. Try also varying this so that you don't feint but do sharp braking before the turn-in at a high enough rate of speed that the rear and will swing out, and then try a small steering angle while applying maximum power.

Try getting up some speed (more than you think nescessary) and cutting the wheel to one side and then counter steering with favor towards a small steering angle.

You may be able to trick the AWD by pulsing the E-brake but not yanking it. If you can, try to replicate the effect that rear-only ABS would have but make sure that you fully release before each pull - if your AWD computer is slow enough, it will see the released portions as an opportunity to send power rear-wards and off of the front wheel. Try this technique with the foot brake as well at various times through the turn, both with and without pressing the gas.

I found that most of the operations in drifting an AWD car were pretty full-on: full on the gas, full on the brake, etc. In racing they say that you should use smooth motions as to not upset the car's tenuous grip at the limit of traction, but in AWD drifting sometimes you will need to wrestle the car out of traction.

Hope this helps and let us know how you make out!

-MR
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Old 12-19-2003, 11:23 AM   #11
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wow!!! After searching the net for a few days I yet to seen the amount of info in one post. Thanks alot. It makes more sence now. When I had tried to drift the car, it feels under power, stupid stock turbo. But I'm in the process of swapping parts from the GST to the TSI which should put me in the 300-350 mark at least, once tuned on pump gas. So i think the hard breaking and power over technique will help alot more then fient technique since now I have to find the balance of power so I don't spin out. I'm not sure how hte sensors work on the car, like I said I'm still new to AWD.

The car as stock suspension for now, next month it should be getting AGXs and a ST rear sway bar. I dont really want to lower the car and put more stress on the drivestrain then I will be appling already. But will prolly get stiffer spring rates.

It's good to have help, all my buddies think I'm nuts for trying to drift my TSI.
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Old 12-19-2003, 12:45 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by jsigone
It's good to have help, all my buddies think I'm nuts for trying to drift my TSI.
I think it's awesome!

I wouldn't lower the car until you need to in order to go faster, which shouldn't be for a while. For as hard as you may have to push the car, you'll probably have your wallet pretty empty with replacement parts...

Messing with the suspension could be a mixed blessing: you could take corners faster because your car would handle better, but your traction circle would be bigger because your car would handle better. Eliminating body roll would most likely be the best thing to do, since your instinct will naturally tell you not to push the car when you're sitting on your arm. If you decide to get new rims, stick with something relatively narrow for now (no 8" wides yet) until you have no trouble at all breaking traction, since wide wheels generally mean more grip and a bigger traction circle.

The sensors in AWD usually compare road speed to axle speed and if the axles are going too fast then it transmits power to the AWD. Speaking of which, if you got tires on the front that were smaller in diameter than the origional ones, it might think that you're slipping all the time - even when you're not - and send power to the rears all the time. Of course, you would essentially turn the car into a 4x4 in 4-wheel mode and get crappy gas mileage (esp with 350 horse!).

I'm glad I could help, kinda felt like I owed you one after all the help with the 4G63T stuff - all my buddies think I'm nuts for trying to build a 350hp AWD CRX, let alone take it drifting!

I don't really know that much about the DSM's AWD, so let me know what works and what doesn't.

-MR
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Old 12-19-2003, 02:49 PM   #13
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Thats my main course of action, getting rid of some of this body roll. It was a night and day difference when I put the AGXs on the GST, but like u said, it might handle so good that it will be harder to loss traction. I'm getting the rear sway bar first, gonna fab up a pair of strut tower braces to help. And I'll get the AGXs after those.

My GST has FD3S rims on them which I wanted to put on the TSI later down the line when I can afford some new tires, they are 16x8 (measured 8.75" though) with 225/45/16, which is bout 5% smaller then the stock tires.

My GST with over 300hp was tuned to 29-30 mpg with 720cc's
I doubt I can get that outta the AWD but will be happy with mid 20's mpg.

Last edited by jsigone; 12-19-2003 at 02:56 PM.
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Old 12-19-2003, 09:58 PM   #14
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listen man, i dont kno if they answered you right or not yet, but i was way too lazy too read those long posts. All i recommend you to do is to hit the gas full way as soon as you lose traction in the rear wheels, your gonna have to be going pretty fast. In the drift, be sure not to countersteer because you will go that direction. Keep your foot on the pedal is all im sayin. You should maintain a drift.
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Old 12-20-2003, 10:57 AM   #15
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I was thinking maybe I should just start bolding the main ideas of my posts - some have gotten pretty long...

at least your honest about being lazy

-MR
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Old 12-22-2003, 08:34 AM   #16
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ok, update. The past week I been swapping parts from the GST to the TSI to make it a street beast. The car has lots of power now. After some on the fly tuning and few quick fients, I find the car is alot easier to hold the slide with more power, I use the fient to start the drift and power over, gas almost all the way down. I found that I was counter steering alot less then last time I was trying. It seems to be working out pretty good.
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Old 12-23-2003, 09:25 AM   #17
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Got any clips?

-MR
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Old 12-23-2003, 04:50 PM   #18
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nope no clips. I'm the only drifter of all my buddies, thats why they think I'm nuts.
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Old 01-19-2004, 08:33 PM   #19
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Re: Re: How to hold AWD drift?

Quote:
Originally posted by CRASHDRIVE
The STI have a great traction control system. They call this an Active Control System (generic name for it, i think they call it something else). When the system notice that a side of the wheels are loosing traction, it will transfer the appropriate power to the needed wheels while will "Snap-Back" to grip.

So, WRX's are hard to drift. I have a clip of an old WRX drifting. They modd it and made it only Rear-Wheel.


How would you go about doing that? my friend was looking for something of that nature for his '02 WRX
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Old 01-22-2004, 08:34 PM   #20
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Re: Re: How to hold AWD drift?

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So, WRX's are hard to drift. I have a clip of an old WRX drifting. They modd it and made it only Rear-Wheel.

Do you know how they made it RWD?
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