Grip vs Drift

[scirocco]

maybe my article can be a sticky as well maybe I can repost it and then your article can go before or after. Well, I doubt that'll happen, I wouldn't get around to it for a while, to busy out there racing.

[BenR]

The answer lies in a book called "Driving to Win" by Caroll Smith.

[Craftsman]

Originally posted by BenR
The answer lies in a book called "Driving to Win" by Caroll Smith.

If only... Like Malcomn said... It's alot more complex than can be explained in simple words. It'll require actual examination under labratory enviroment

Ok I'm BSing now... Anyways, my point is that Malcomn is very correct in that when you're in the dynamic region of the friction circle (I call it the friction circle because traction is friction ), the actual friction changes. It also depends on the amount of power and the amount of weight is actually transfered to that tire.

The actual dynamic friction doesn't change. It's translated to another form of energy...

Energy must be conserved, meaning that the tires are spinning but the velocity of the vehicle isn't par, that kinetic energy has to go somewhere. Conservation of energy says that the friction force that was just outputed by the tire is now translated into heat. Heat cooks the tires and now burnt rubber.



Matt.

[BenR]

Originally posted by Craftsman
If only... Like Malcomn said... It's alot more complex than can be explained in simple words. It'll require actual examination under labratory enviroment

Ok I'm BSing now... Anyways, my point is that Malcomn is very correct in that when you're in the dynamic region of the friction circle (I call it the friction circle because traction is friction ), the actual friction changes. It also depends on the amount of power and the amount of weight is actually transfered to that tire.

The actual dynamic friction doesn't change. It's translated to another form of energy...

Energy must be conserved, meaning that the tires are spinning but the velocity of the vehicle isn't par, that kinetic energy has to go somewhere. Conservation of energy says that the friction force that was just outputed by the tire is now translated into heat. Heat cooks the tires and now burnt rubber.



Matt.

It's not some magical mystical thing that cannot be understood by mere mortals. Seriously go to borders or barnes and knoble get a cup of coffie and read a few chapters of the book. You'll be glad you did.

[Craftsman]

I learned how to drive from my dynamic mechanics class and from Gran Turismo Dynamic mechanics is prolly the best way to learn what really happens and explain what really goes on physics wise. Weight transfer, friction circle, etc... They're all learned from dynamics... Of course, the stuff that you learn in dynamics isn't directly related, but with time a reader will see it's application.

You can even see why increasing your turning radius means that you can carry more speed in turns.

Drifting doesn't defy physics... It's rapes what tire engineers work so hard to accomplish...

Matt.

[Hubert Young]

Yes, drifting is straight out not practical from the point of view of grip racing, but the techniques used in drifting, IMO, are very helpful in grip racing and vice versa.

Drifting has made me more ballsy when driving grip. I am not afraid to hang the tail out when I enter a corner too hot or when I encounter slippery surface (rain, oil, etc.). You see most racers out on the track racing would have a hard time correcting if their cars' back ends do get loose. Another thing that comes in my mind that drifting is beneficial to my grip driving is that I know the limit of the car a lot more and be able to drive at the limit.

On the other hand, drifting can also be bad for grip driving. My experience is that drifting is so fun and sometimes I would be sloppy and let the car drift, losing valuable split seconds on the track when going for time attack. I always have to tell myself to refrain from getting the car sideways too much.

Hubert Young
Motorsport Dynamics/Falken/HIN/Hot Wheels S14

[scirocco]

Don't tell me you do this at time attacks:

[derrickv]

Grip all the way in a race track there's no doubt about it. If you're going down those hills portrayed in Initial D w/ continous U-turns, drift might have some use, but going Up is an entirely different matter too.

Drift is awesome for show. Grip is awesome for racing.

Do you see F1 cars drift AT ALL? F1 is at the peak of all racing sports. If drifting the cars would make them a 1/100th of a second faster then they would incorporate it in their gameplans.

Nuff said.

[Drift For Food]

Originally Posted by Hubert Young

...but the techniques used in drifting, IMO, are very helpful in grip racing and vice versa.

Very much agree. It's very useful to know and understand what's on both sides of the traction limit and know what to do when you do eventually oversteep. I kind of think of it this way. If you can get to the line between grip and drift is more gray then black and white, you're doing good.

Originally Posted by derrickv

Do you see F1 cars drift AT ALL?

Yes. Although their slip angles are tiny. Same goes for Nascar or any other racing sport. It's not rear end way out, full lock kind of drifting, but most racers are driving around the limits of grip.

Originally Posted by derrickv

Drift is awesome for show. Grip is awesome for racing.Nuff said.

You imply that drift can't be fast. It depends. It depends on road surface, car, tires, many things. As well, you may also be assuming there is only show drift in which case there is not. The same techniques propagate big and showy all the way down to infinitesimally small increments that pretty much can't be perceived by anyone but the driver.

Fast depends. For example, when I rally-x my car, the fastest I can go is when I am drifting always, very slight angle but it's the fastest method. Deformable surfaces benefit drifting. For auto-x, I'm mainly within the grip range, but it's because my car lacks the power to be fast enough to freely be at the edge most of the time. However, I will always step up to the point where I hover around the edge. You still need a clean line and be tidy with the car, but don't think that drifting outright means you're going to be slow. It's not drifting specifically that makes you slow. It's how you drive the car. I'm not a show drifter. I never have been. I take the hobby in a very different light, mainly car control and being able to manipulate the car on both ends of the grip limit competently. You can be slow or fast on both sides. It all depends on how you drive.

do wat u think is more fun. i like drifting,so i'll do it ( drifting doesn't wear out the front brakes for when u really need 'em)

[D1 DRIFTER]

your all beating a dead horse....

[socalwrench]

Wow, another thread brought back. These one was originally from 2004.

This is a useless thread- grip and drift each have their rightful place- end of discussion.

[spiritofFC3s]

grip is faster than drift. drift gets you laid. stfu

Grip is good at pro race series but in estoina we dont have hills or good race track and my cars is only honda civic type r and nissan 240x
But lets get to pont if i corner with ff(type r) then it be better for grip
if i corner with fr(240x) then there will be oversteer and you need drift at one point
i started like at the 12 years old grip drivin and at 16 i started drifting
at start my grip were better than drift but later i drifted some cornerd faster then grip drivin