S13 reduce grip rebound that causes fishtail?

mello88 · 03-25-2004, 10:01 AM

I have bone stock 1990 240sx S13. When drifting the car, the rear tires will "hook up" again at the end of the drift and the rebound of grip throws the car the opposite direction causing fishtail. I know this is feint technique, but I've found it's very hard to drift the car without this happening... So I'm curious for ways to reduce this effect? Obviously as the rear tire tread wears down this should be less and less of a problem, but I also feel this has a lot to do with the suspension, considering that the stock setup is pretty soft. I'm leaning towards Koni adjustable yellow struts and a set of coilovers.

I would also like some suggestions for driving techniques that can help reduce this

Thanks for your input

raging panda · 03-25-2004, 10:32 AM

its mostly the fact that you probably have an open diff. An lsd will keep the tires spinning and they wont catch at the end of the drift.

SilverGhost · 03-25-2004, 10:39 AM

i have also noticed this effect in my 91, but i usually just go with it and continue the fishtail into a choku dori type of sliding. that sort of thing is god for a parking lot, but in a touge or battle type situation it would be no good.

the open diff thing makes sense.....i suppose that i should get a lsd along with the CA18DET......

anyways, it isnt your suspension because mine does the same thing with kyb AGX struts and 5zigen lowering springs and strut bars......

nissanguy_24 · 03-25-2004, 10:40 AM

You need to be quicker on your counter steering and correction. You have to stay on top of that rebound. Or use it for another turn.

If you cant solve the problem threw skill then your skill is not yet good enough to warrant upgrading the car.

i dont mean to sound harsh because it is one of the hard parts of learning to drift.

mello88 · 03-25-2004, 10:40 AM

The VLSD swap will be done sometime in the near future, thanks

mello88 · 03-25-2004, 10:43 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by nissanguy_24
You need to be quicker on your counter steering and correction. You have to stay on top of that rebound. Or use it for another turn.

If you cant solve the problem threw skill then your skill is not yet good enough to warrant upgrading the car.

i dont mean to sound harsh because it is one of the hard parts of learning to drift.

Hi

I can use it for another corner, it's that sometimes there just isn't another one and fishtailing down the straight isn't needed. I'll practice more on my countersteer, but during the drift the car feels balanced and everything just feels right. Once I try to straighten back out though the rear will hook up and cause this... So I guess I'm asking to make sure that it's something that I can fix with skill as opposed to needed LSD + suspension done (which will happen in time anyways). Just lookig for some suggestions, thanks

mello88 · 03-25-2004, 10:46 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by SilverGhost
i have also noticed this effect in my 91, but i usually just go with it and continue the fishtail into a choku dori type of sliding. that sort of thing is god for a parking lot, but in a touge or battle type situation it would be no good.

the open diff thing makes sense.....i suppose that i should get a lsd along with the CA18DET......

anyways, it isnt your suspension because mine does the same thing with kyb AGX struts and 5zigen lowering springs and strut bars......

Hi SilverGhost

I've noticed it every time I've slid the car since I've owned it, normally the suspension feels "okay" although a little soft. But near the end of the drift when the rear hooks and transfers the weight the car feels like it has godawful body roll and I don't think the suspension is helping me out here.

LSD would no doubt make things a little more predictable

nissanguy_24 · 03-25-2004, 10:51 AM

Well the thing about using it for another turn is, if you cant control that rebound its hard to really use it safely for another turn.

Because i dont think out alot of what i do when i drift i just do it by experience, give me a few minutes to actualy think out the solution to this.

mello88 · 03-25-2004, 10:57 AM

Yeah if you don't watch it you'll end up spun out facing the wrong direction. I can usually control it and straighten the car back out, but it just seems like a waste of time and energy and makes me feel like I'm not doing something right. I've watched many other people and cars drift and I don't usually see them with this problem.

I think the LSD would help tremendously, because that is most of the (mechanical) reason why this happens. The rest is skill and comes with time, I understand that much at least

.

In the mean time is there anything I can do to help eliminate this problem? It's feeling like I lift off the throttle which causes this, and that I should slowly easy off to regain grip... But nothing I've tried so far has really helped. And FWIW I don't ever just lift unless I _want_ the car sideways....

Thanks everyone for the replies

nissanguy_24 · 03-25-2004, 11:00 AM

Well i used to have this problem. I still do on a rare ocasion when im distracted or my steering isnt quick enough. But most my drifts even at highspeeds 60+ miles an hour are very smooth A perfect drift is always smooth.

And i am still running an open differential. It isnt perfect, but neither am i yet.

mello88 · 03-25-2004, 11:04 AM

How long have you been driving your 240sx?

What about lower speed drifts at say 15-30mph, do you ever have this?

On a side note I wish to hell the 240 had cupholders, this wicked fishtail caused me to spill my coffee EVERYWHERE this morning

nissanguy_24 · 03-25-2004, 11:11 AM

I ment to post there here but did it by mistake on another thread..

Alright i've been thinking about it, and hand drifting all over my desk... This bebound comes from too much counter steer into the corner.

Lets say you enter a corner your tail comes out 45 degrees, and you counter steer 65 degrees. When you regain grip your going to be moving forward with your wheels pointing some godawful direction, so the force will throw the rear into the other direction.

What you need to do is either counter steer less or begin to straighten your steering out as you regain traction.

it wont be easy, its all about steering and timming.

A lsd will make things more predictable, but you can still get further along your drifting quest by practicing until you got that down how is.

__________________

nissanguy_24 · 03-25-2004, 11:14 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mello88
How long have you been driving your 240sx?

What about lower speed drifts at say 15-30mph, do you ever have this?

On a side note I wish to hell the 240 had cupholders, this wicked fishtail caused me to spill my coffee EVERYWHERE this morning

It doesnt have cup holders for a reason, dont have any distractions while your driving hard. And if you fishtailed under normal driving you need to be more careful.. also try taking out the ash tray.. makes a good cup holder.

I have been at it for over a year now.

SilverGhost · 03-25-2004, 11:41 AM

what technique are you using to drift? i have only noticed the whip back when im cluch kicking, and i only do that when im showing off and creating lots of smoke.....when i have brake drifted, the 240 comes out nice and easy and really solid too. it may the difference in speed, and how much coutnersteer you are using.

i would say that you shold find a really big open lot, get some comes, make a few corners of varying sharpness, and practice some high speed slides. make sure you hav plenty of tread though, as the more speed you slid with, the more tread you burn.

hope that helps, keep up the good work.

btw, i got my 240 in august, but i have been drifting for around a year. i used to slide a 82 datsun 280zx 5 speed....you think the tail whip is bad on the 240, oh man, that z had wicked whip....i mean i would slide it in the lot at like 25, and i would enter and execute just fine, but then when i exited, anything more than donuts or fishtailing, the exit would put me around 360 or 180....it was very hard to control, and then when i got in the s13, it seemed like a piece of cake to slide.

SilverGhost · 03-25-2004, 11:47 AM

a little trick i use for low speed drifting too, is when exiting, let the wheel slip in your hands just a little, this lets the cars straighten itself out. it is really handy down low, but i would NOT suggest it for annything about 30 mph. and if you are street drifting, dpot do this..if you hit a bump while letting the wheel free, you would be facked.

thats just a little something ive learned....good luck

nissanguy_24 · 03-25-2004, 11:53 AM

Yeah when brake drifting i rarely have this problem, THough one tire will end up grabbing because its open and if things arent perfect i get whipped alittle.

Its just about staying on it. Also at lower speeds i was letting the wheel come back into my hand, It works well at higher speeds to a degree. but for the really smooth drifts i have made i seem to be using a combination of that, and actively moving it. Im still working on my technique though.

SilverGhost · 03-25-2004, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by nissanguy_24
Im still working on my technique though.

yeah, me too

nissanguy_24 · 03-25-2004, 01:40 PM

arent we all? lol

raging panda · 03-25-2004, 06:38 PM

it shouldnt make too much difference what techique you are using to enter as the exit of a drift should almost always be the same, so I don't think it being a clutch kick or brake drift should make a difference, unless it is the angle that you exit the drift in.

Drift For Food · 03-25-2004, 07:07 PM

Yeah, in the simplest terms, the rear recatches first. You could modify this with suspension changes or technique changes.

I've only played with the suspension stuff in the virutal world

Sounds scary, but the physics are sound. Suspension changes cost money, but they make the car easier to drift.

For suspension changes, a lighter front sway bar or adding or making the rear sway bar heavier will make the rear stay sliding longer. You try to get both the front and rear to grab at the same time...or at least closer. You're just trying to change the sideways weight shift, basically making it even front and rear.

Techniques are free, but you have to know what to do. I've actually had real life experience with this, lol ;p

As far as techniques, I think most everything was suggested. Since you know the rear will catch first, try to catch the front end quicker. This means straighten out faster/earlier. Also, you could try to loosen the rear end right at the end of the slide by giving it some gas to losen the tires a little right at the start of the catching, same for throttle blip or clutch kick just to give the rear end a little extra looseness. You just have to get used to how it grabs and learn to make the front and rear grab evenly. It's just a matter of getting used to the car.

sil180sx · 03-25-2004, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by nissanguy_24
But most my drifts even at highspeeds 60+ miles an hour are very smooth A perfect drift is always smooth.

And i am still running an open differential. It isnt perfect, but neither am i yet.

so your saying you drift third gear? you must have close to 400 hp?

nissanguy_24 · 03-25-2004, 10:05 PM

No, i have like 155.. ill be lucky if im putting down 130.. and usualy i drift in the top of second. sometimes im in "D" or third. I dont see why i would have to have hundreds of horse power to drift at that speed. Please enlighten me...

Drift For Food · 03-26-2004, 08:17 AM

Yeah, you really don't need a large amount to drift. You need quite a bit to have free will over the tires spinning, but to drift, you don't need all that much. My Ranger is rated at 70hp at the flywheel, maybe 50-60hp actually to the wheels. That's driftable with the power it has. It's only driftable on gravel or less, and power enough to have free will over the rear tires spinning only comes in Winter. I run 3rd gear with that cause second tops out at 35mph and most corners are a hair faster, 40-50mph range. It's really a matter of weight shift and modifying your driving style to accomodate the low power. Come in faster, steer a little more into the corner than you normally would, things like that. Whatever allows you to drift with what you have.

HasNoTiresLeft · 03-26-2004, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by mello88
How long have you been driving your 240sx?

What about lower speed drifts at say 15-30mph, do you ever have this?

On a side note I wish to hell the 240 had cupholders, this wicked fishtail caused me to spill my coffee EVERYWHERE this morning

hahaha yeah u got the same cupholder problem as me, i never buy open top drinks now... and even with my sodas, i open em up FFSSSSSSTt damnit!! lol

banged240_drift · 03-30-2004, 02:12 PM

yeah
taking out the ashtray works pretty well bt i dont ever drift when ive got crap liek that in the car

i had beenhaving problems with the rebound so i adjusted the countersteerto throttle "ratio" and instead of just letitng the throttle all the way out or pushing in the clutch i let off slower
you might try that , or find a way of your own

but my cars sittin in my garage on jack stands because of that rebound crap
i was drifting a corner i hadnt done before and after driving it pretty quick a few times i drifted it and it liek dipped down and i guess i freaked out but it whipped way sideways the other way and right into a curb, messed alota crap up
but ill be done with her tommorow

03-25-2004, 10:01 AM	#1
mello88 Newbie Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: SFV + surrounding canyons Posts: 9	S13 reduce grip rebound that causes fishtail? I have bone stock 1990 240sx S13. When drifting the car, the rear tires will "hook up" again at the end of the drift and the rebound of grip throws the car the opposite direction causing fishtail. I know this is feint technique, but I've found it's very hard to drift the car without this happening... So I'm curious for ways to reduce this effect? Obviously as the rear tire tread wears down this should be less and less of a problem, but I also feel this has a lot to do with the suspension, considering that the stock setup is pretty soft. I'm leaning towards Koni adjustable yellow struts and a set of coilovers. I would also like some suggestions for driving techniques that can help reduce this Thanks for your input

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03-25-2004, 10:32 AM	#2
raging panda Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Renton. Posts: 379	its mostly the fact that you probably have an open diff. An lsd will keep the tires spinning and they wont catch at the end of the drift.

03-25-2004, 10:39 AM	#3
SilverGhost touge sleepy-eye 180sx Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: CO Posts: 964	i have also noticed this effect in my 91, but i usually just go with it and continue the fishtail into a choku dori type of sliding. that sort of thing is god for a parking lot, but in a touge or battle type situation it would be no good. the open diff thing makes sense.....i suppose that i should get a lsd along with the CA18DET...... anyways, it isnt your suspension because mine does the same thing with kyb AGX struts and 5zigen lowering springs and strut bars......

03-25-2004, 10:40 AM	#4
nissanguy_24 Guest Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: bakersfield, CA Posts: 3,197	You need to be quicker on your counter steering and correction. You have to stay on top of that rebound. Or use it for another turn. If you cant solve the problem threw skill then your skill is not yet good enough to warrant upgrading the car. i dont mean to sound harsh because it is one of the hard parts of learning to drift.

03-25-2004, 10:51 AM	#8
nissanguy_24 Guest Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: bakersfield, CA Posts: 3,197	Well the thing about using it for another turn is, if you cant control that rebound its hard to really use it safely for another turn. Because i dont think out alot of what i do when i drift i just do it by experience, give me a few minutes to actualy think out the solution to this.

03-25-2004, 10:57 AM	#9
mello88 Newbie Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: SFV + surrounding canyons Posts: 9	Yeah if you don't watch it you'll end up spun out facing the wrong direction. I can usually control it and straighten the car back out, but it just seems like a waste of time and energy and makes me feel like I'm not doing something right. I've watched many other people and cars drift and I don't usually see them with this problem. I think the LSD would help tremendously, because that is most of the (mechanical) reason why this happens. The rest is skill and comes with time, I understand that much at least . In the mean time is there anything I can do to help eliminate this problem? It's feeling like I lift off the throttle which causes this, and that I should slowly easy off to regain grip... But nothing I've tried so far has really helped. And FWIW I don't ever just lift unless I _want_ the car sideways.... Thanks everyone for the replies

03-25-2004, 11:00 AM	#10
nissanguy_24 Guest Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: bakersfield, CA Posts: 3,197	Well i used to have this problem. I still do on a rare ocasion when im distracted or my steering isnt quick enough. But most my drifts even at highspeeds 60+ miles an hour are very smooth A perfect drift is always smooth. And i am still running an open differential. It isnt perfect, but neither am i yet.

03-25-2004, 11:04 AM	#11
mello88 Newbie Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: SFV + surrounding canyons Posts: 9	How long have you been driving your 240sx? What about lower speed drifts at say 15-30mph, do you ever have this? On a side note I wish to hell the 240 had cupholders, this wicked fishtail caused me to spill my coffee EVERYWHERE this morning

03-25-2004, 11:11 AM	#12
nissanguy_24 Guest Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: bakersfield, CA Posts: 3,197	I ment to post there here but did it by mistake on another thread.. Alright i've been thinking about it, and hand drifting all over my desk... This bebound comes from too much counter steer into the corner. Lets say you enter a corner your tail comes out 45 degrees, and you counter steer 65 degrees. When you regain grip your going to be moving forward with your wheels pointing some godawful direction, so the force will throw the rear into the other direction. What you need to do is either counter steer less or begin to straighten your steering out as you regain traction. it wont be easy, its all about steering and timming. A lsd will make things more predictable, but you can still get further along your drifting quest by practicing until you got that down how is. __________________

03-25-2004, 11:41 AM	#14
SilverGhost touge sleepy-eye 180sx Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: CO Posts: 964	what technique are you using to drift? i have only noticed the whip back when im cluch kicking, and i only do that when im showing off and creating lots of smoke.....when i have brake drifted, the 240 comes out nice and easy and really solid too. it may the difference in speed, and how much coutnersteer you are using. i would say that you shold find a really big open lot, get some comes, make a few corners of varying sharpness, and practice some high speed slides. make sure you hav plenty of tread though, as the more speed you slid with, the more tread you burn. hope that helps, keep up the good work. btw, i got my 240 in august, but i have been drifting for around a year. i used to slide a 82 datsun 280zx 5 speed....you think the tail whip is bad on the 240, oh man, that z had wicked whip....i mean i would slide it in the lot at like 25, and i would enter and execute just fine, but then when i exited, anything more than donuts or fishtailing, the exit would put me around 360 or 180....it was very hard to control, and then when i got in the s13, it seemed like a piece of cake to slide.

03-25-2004, 11:47 AM	#15
SilverGhost touge sleepy-eye 180sx Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: CO Posts: 964	a little trick i use for low speed drifting too, is when exiting, let the wheel slip in your hands just a little, this lets the cars straighten itself out. it is really handy down low, but i would NOT suggest it for annything about 30 mph. and if you are street drifting, dpot do this..if you hit a bump while letting the wheel free, you would be facked. thats just a little something ive learned....good luck

03-25-2004, 11:53 AM	#16
nissanguy_24 Guest Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: bakersfield, CA Posts: 3,197	Yeah when brake drifting i rarely have this problem, THough one tire will end up grabbing because its open and if things arent perfect i get whipped alittle. Its just about staying on it. Also at lower speeds i was letting the wheel come back into my hand, It works well at higher speeds to a degree. but for the really smooth drifts i have made i seem to be using a combination of that, and actively moving it. Im still working on my technique though.

03-25-2004, 01:40 PM	#18
nissanguy_24 Guest Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: bakersfield, CA Posts: 3,197	arent we all? lol

03-25-2004, 06:38 PM	#19
raging panda Registered User Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: Renton. Posts: 379	it shouldnt make too much difference what techique you are using to enter as the exit of a drift should almost always be the same, so I don't think it being a clutch kick or brake drift should make a difference, unless it is the angle that you exit the drift in.

03-25-2004, 07:07 PM	#20
Drift For Food OMG the ground's white! Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 676	Yeah, in the simplest terms, the rear recatches first. You could modify this with suspension changes or technique changes. I've only played with the suspension stuff in the virutal world Sounds scary, but the physics are sound. Suspension changes cost money, but they make the car easier to drift. For suspension changes, a lighter front sway bar or adding or making the rear sway bar heavier will make the rear stay sliding longer. You try to get both the front and rear to grab at the same time...or at least closer. You're just trying to change the sideways weight shift, basically making it even front and rear. Techniques are free, but you have to know what to do. I've actually had real life experience with this, lol ;p As far as techniques, I think most everything was suggested. Since you know the rear will catch first, try to catch the front end quicker. This means straighten out faster/earlier. Also, you could try to loosen the rear end right at the end of the slide by giving it some gas to losen the tires a little right at the start of the catching, same for throttle blip or clutch kick just to give the rear end a little extra looseness. You just have to get used to how it grabs and learn to make the front and rear grab evenly. It's just a matter of getting used to the car.

03-25-2004, 10:05 PM	#22
nissanguy_24 Guest Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: bakersfield, CA Posts: 3,197	No, i have like 155.. ill be lucky if im putting down 130.. and usualy i drift in the top of second. sometimes im in "D" or third. I dont see why i would have to have hundreds of horse power to drift at that speed. Please enlighten me...

03-26-2004, 08:17 AM	#23
Drift For Food OMG the ground's white! Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Minnesota Posts: 676	Yeah, you really don't need a large amount to drift. You need quite a bit to have free will over the tires spinning, but to drift, you don't need all that much. My Ranger is rated at 70hp at the flywheel, maybe 50-60hp actually to the wheels. That's driftable with the power it has. It's only driftable on gravel or less, and power enough to have free will over the rear tires spinning only comes in Winter. I run 3rd gear with that cause second tops out at 35mph and most corners are a hair faster, 40-50mph range. It's really a matter of weight shift and modifying your driving style to accomodate the low power. Come in faster, steer a little more into the corner than you normally would, things like that. Whatever allows you to drift with what you have.

03-30-2004, 02:12 PM	#25
banged240_drift Registered User Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: dallas/ft.worth Posts: 260	yeah taking out the ashtray works pretty well bt i dont ever drift when ive got crap liek that in the car i had beenhaving problems with the rebound so i adjusted the countersteerto throttle "ratio" and instead of just letitng the throttle all the way out or pushing in the clutch i let off slower you might try that , or find a way of your own but my cars sittin in my garage on jack stands because of that rebound crap i was drifting a corner i hadnt done before and after driving it pretty quick a few times i drifted it and it liek dipped down and i guess i freaked out but it whipped way sideways the other way and right into a curb, messed alota crap up but ill be done with her tommorow