About braking before throwing the back out

[mmmis]

How exactly are you supposed to brake before starting a drift?

I mean when you brake you put more weight on the front tires and therefore "loose some weight" in the rear tires.

But isnt this a totally dynamic situation??...i mean you get your original weight distribution back as soon as you realease the brake?

If this is true then you would have to start you drift while still braking....so my question is simple:

If all of this is true....wont braking during "turn in" cause understeering? (is thiswhat they mean by 4 wheel drift?)

[MrodDrft]

i think this question is way over the heads of 98% of the users on this forum

['97 S14 SE Turb]

Originally posted by mmmis
How exactly are you supposed to brake before starting a drift?

I mean when you brake you put more weight on the front tires and therefore "loose some weight" in the rear tires.

This is necessary to have sufficient grip in the front tires. In many dynamic situation, by getting on the gas without sufficient power, the car would end up understeering.

With less weight on the rear tires, there will be less available grip, making it easier to slide.

But isnt this a totally dynamic situation??...i mean you get your original weight distribution back as soon as you realease the brake?

No, if you stay off the gas, the vehicle still has a shifted forward weight bias.

If this is true then you would have to start you drift while still braking....so my question is simple:

If all of this is true....wont braking during "turn in" cause understeering? (is thiswhat they mean by 4 wheel drift?)

It all depends on the vehicle speeds, and amount of braking force applied.

My personal driving preference is to use braking initiated drifting. This is due to the higher speeds from circuit drifting. What happens is I use the brake to force the tires to exceed it's grip threshold. This happens a lot during braking into corners where there is dynamic loading on the outside tires. By my normal driving standard, that loading would be near the lateral limit of grip. By braking in this situation, I force the tires to lose the grip, resulting in a slide.

This kind of driving is not recommended for folks with less grippy tires. Grippy tires is definetly a requirement, especially in the front. With junky type tire, it's easier to lock up the front tires, causing understeer, ending the drift there.

The bottom line is, there is too many variable to be discussed on how, and why it works. It's easier to explain it in person with a vehicle.

Or, state specifically, what you were trying to do, to get braking drift working.

[nissanguy_24]

Originally posted by MrodDrft
i think this question is way over the heads of 98% of the users on this forum

This really doesnt help anyone..

Now for the question


For me it took some practice to get the timming right. The problem i had was, if i braked to hard i would loose all my speed long before the turn in.. I began comming at the corner at high speed. I would then start braking "tap.... tap... tap" basicly as hard as i could with out locking them up. The front would dip down signifigantly then i turned in before the corner and the rear naturally slid around behind me.

After practicing and getting the timming down i could take many corners this way, waiting until much later "taptap" real quick, to send weight forward and turn in. If you wait to long then yeah the weight will balance back out. but you have to be quick about it.

So it does indeed work. and im sure theres lots of varients of this technique.. but it requires knowing what your car can do, and what kind of traction is availible.. i was doing this on discount costco tires... they just had the same tires on all four corners with out problem.. in this technique though, especialy with out much grip brake biasing is important.. stock brake biasing is usualy prefered. for example i went to semi metallic brake pads up front and could get nothing but understeer.. if i had gone to semi metallic pads on all four corners i would of been fine.. and its the first thing thats getting replaced once my engine is running again.

[MrodDrft]

lol im sorry i just had to0 say it

[Emagdnim]

brake drift is definitly a timing thing as I have learned. Many things have to be done at the same time. 1 of the most important things is shifting down. I have been haveing problems with understeer durning my brake drifts and have found that understeer can be avoided by downshifting durning turn-in. Basicly brake enough before the corner to shift the weight foward while starting to downshift(heel toe the gass if needed) then let out the clutch while at the same time leting off the brake and turning in. The sudden change of letting off the brake and the letting out of the clutch at the same moment should be enough to brake the rear traction. The amount your gonna initaly oversteer is pretty much controled by how much gas you give it while heel toeing(which isn't nessecery somtimes as you can use a shift lock in almost the same way) Its pretty hard to do at first but with time and practice it becomes more fluent.

[mmmis]

Originally posted by Emagdnim
brake drift is definitly a timing thing as I have learned. Many things have to be done at the same time. 1 of the most important things is shifting down. I have been haveing problems with understeer durning my brake drifts and have found that understeer can be avoided by downshifting durning turn-in. Basicly brake enough before the corner to shift the weight foward while starting to downshift(heel toe the gass if needed) then let out the clutch while at the same time leting off the brake and turning in. The sudden change of letting off the brake and the letting out of the clutch at the same moment should be enough to brake the rear traction. The amount your gonna initaly oversteer is pretty much controled by how much gas you give it while heel toeing(which isn't nessecery somtimes as you can use a shift lock in almost the same way) Its pretty hard to do at first but with time and practice it becomes more fluent.

I was with you til you said that the oversteer depends on the amount of gas??

If you release the clutch during a situation where the tires are already beeing stretched "sideways" you can loose grip in two ways:

You either release the clutch so the rear tires increase OR "loose" rpm (the rear tires own rpm, not the engines).

or in more simple words: Do the rear tires want to go "faster" or not when you release the clutch?

Which one do you mean that you do?

(I´ll explain what I mean after you have answered this question)

[CRASHDRIVE]

Have you tried other techniques? Or you progress already and now your trying out this particular technique of drifting?

I mean, most of my frist years was just e-braking, but after I progress I was able to understard what I need to do to initiate other techniques. Such as the brake drift that you're mentioning.

If braking is a must, I learned it the same way I would initial a drift by pulling the ebrake. The best way I can describe it is enter hot in a corner, turn hard and brake at the same time. Depends on your brakes this might initate all tires to lose traction. So to solve that, Let go of the gas pedal before the turn and DO NOT press the clutch, just let go of the gas pedal. By doing this on a fairly fast speed your car will shift forward causing more weight to the front. Then the rest is up to you on how you want to initiate your drift.

Actually longer body like the fastback 240 tend execute this more easily. Due to the sway they can produce in the rear.

Hope that helps, if not, sorry.

Good luck

[SilverGhost]

what i have found, is that it all depends on speed. say high speed (70+ mph, and yes i have done drifts this fast) if you are entering a medeium ti hard corner, stay n the gas, mash the brake with your left foot, and the backend will pitch quite easily. the trick to doing it that way is to stay on the gas at all times, w/o touching the clutch. at lower speeds, toe heel works pretty well. just turn in, toe-heel, and quickly let the clutch out. backend should just swing right out. hope that helps some...

[mranlet]

For a braking drift you're essentially keeping the front tires on the hairy edge of their traction limit and making the rears exceed theirs.

You don't brake and turn at the same time, but rather brake hard, release, and while the weight is still at the front of the car you give steering input. Because of the physics of tire load and the characteristics of rubber, the tire is able to do more work with an increased vertical [but not lateral] load. This principle is the basis for how downforce increases grip - by increasing the vertical load on a tire the traction capabilities (often represented in the Traction Circle) increase.

Under braking the vertical load on the front tires has increased, making it possible for the rubber to do more work, but the amount of weight that they are asked to redirect has not changed because the car still weighs the same. The work being done by the tire will be at the edge of the traction circle under heavy braking as it is, so if you kept braking and gave steering input you'd make the tire's work required exceed the traction circle. However, if you quickly eliminate the braking and quickly give steering input you might be able to more the work done by the tire to the edge of the temporarily enlarged traction circle before the the re-balancing of the weight causes the circle to return to normal size.

In short - if you try to brake and steer at the same time, the car will understeer due to frontal washout. If you brake and steer in quick succession, you will have increased load capacity and the car will turn in hard.

To the rear:
Now, with a lower vertical load (due to weight transfer forward) and the same lateral load on the rear tires the traction circle has, in effect, gotten smaller. It won't take much at this point to let the break traction back here. If the car is setup to do so, the rear may even break away on its own since you will still have a bit of braking force being asked of the tire in it's small traction circle (especially if there is excessive negative camber resulting in less contact patch before body roll takes effect). If the tires don't break away this easily you are then left with the options of the E-brake, the power-over, the throttle-off, the shift-lock or the clutch kick.

Each will operate differently to move the work required of the tires to outside the temporarily smaller traction circle. E-brake, throttle-off, and shift-lock will serve to break traction by slowing the tire down while the power-over and clutch kick speed the rear wheels up (depending on how the kick is executed).

I hope this helps clear things up - if not, you may want to consult a book like "going faster" or "high performance handling handbook".

-MR

[Emagdnim]

Originally posted by mmmis


or in more simple words: Do the rear tires want to go "faster" or not when you release the clutch?

Which one do you mean that you do?

(I´ll explain what I mean after you have answered this question)

well it depends on the corner lenght and angle. if your not useing shift lock or accel off, Then yea I want the rear tires to go faster. Its the abrut change of going from braking directly to accelerating that breaks the traction.

The amount your gonna INITIALY oversteer is gonna depend alot on your rpm when you let out the clutch. Of course again depending on the situation this isn't always true.

[sil180sx]

man all you guys talk tooooooooooo much....

its easy as clutch in, foot brake, e-brake all in a fluid motion

[nissanguy_24]

Originally posted by CRASHDRIVE
Actually longer body like the fastback 240 tend execute this more easily. Due to the sway they can produce in the rear.

Hope that helps, if not, sorry.

Good luck

THe fastback S13 and Coupe S13 are the same length. The wheel bases are indentical. save perhaps bumpers they are the same length.

[nissanguy_24]

You guys are talking about RPMS and the clutch and wheel speed. None of it maters in a true braking drift. mranlet hit it on the nail. However his explanation is pretty complex so ill simplify it.

When you pitch a car into a corner both wheels are trying to rotate due to internia. The tires grip is fighting this. However if you go too fast something will give way.. if the fronts give way first its understeer and if the rear gives way first its oversteer. Pretty simple right?

Now with a braking drift we are using longitudial weight transfer (forward and rear, as oposed to the side to side latitudial weight transfer) You are going to brake hard. Send weight forward (like having a fish tank on a car, then suddenly stopping. where does the water go?) all that extra weight on the front end increases the traction.. kindof like pushing down on a eracer then trying to move it across a desk.. extra weight = extra traction * On the other hand it also takes that same wieght off the rear tires. Now what is going to give way first?

So you enter the corner early as you do in all drifting.. the rear will naturally slide out depending on how much weight has been transfered. This is why most guys prefered well balanced cars, its easier to predict whats going to happen. With the S13.. stock these things will understeer just alittle. So you come in hot at highspeed tap on the brakes, when the front dips down you turn in, naturally the rear slides out.. and oh when you do it right at high speeds for the first time its oh so sweet.. then its up to you to counter steer and stuff.

Remember though if you turn before you brake then your likely going to lock the front wheels up. In a braking drift its not done at the same time, but right before each other.

Like i sugested when i tried it start out making slower movements, physically feel the car dip down before you turn in.

If you messing with the throttle as your learning this, or the clutch or anything then your not doing it right. Once you learned how to do this then you can learn how the clutch and throttle effects it.

One thing to remember too once you get braking drifts down like this you can use braking to aid another technique. Dont have enough power to power over? give the brakes a tap real quick. wel you get the idea. Am i going to have to write a drifting 101 thread on braking drifts?

And if you are still trying to mess with the throttle and clutch or anything then go borrow a friends auto S13.. we all know someone with one and go and do it and until you get the hang of sliding the rear out.

[mranlet]

Originally posted by nissanguy_24
mranlet hit it on the nail. However his explanation is pretty complex so ill simplify it.

That was simplified?

...I just try to be through

-MR

[nissanguy_24]

Originally posted by mranlet
That was simplified?

...I just try to be through

-MR

I tried to make it simple. Oh well. I just didnt want to loose the new guys, so i used simple terms. Honestly this *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored* is easier to do then describe properly

[mranlet]

Yeah, drifting.com should get an online driving simulator or something - do you think you could hook that up?

In addition:
Mranlet's "Best Mod Ever" Award



-MR

[nissanguy_24]

Nah my programing skills are limited, im more a LAN/WAN guy.

And why is he bowling? maybe its a metaphore... Hes bowling away the threads asking for illegal touge locations?

[mranlet]

...yeah, something like that...

I was thinking more of "pinning the place down"

...it was mainly just a vehucle for me to try and suck up so that we could get a driving simulator. Are you sure we couldn't make one with a few floppy disks and some tape or something?

-MR

[Emagdnim]

Originally posted by nissanguy_24
You guys are talking about RPMS and the clutch and wheel speed. None of it maters in a true braking drift.

In the drift bible when Tsuchiya demostrates the brake drift he says the three important things here are when to turn in, when to shift down, and how much you brake, he also goes on to talk about the importantance of what rpm your at when you release the clutch. The technique you described is correct as long you can enter and exit the turn in the same gear. Which is every coner in an automatic, but isn't always the case with a manual.

I don't think any one technique can be consider "true" braking drift as there are too many different circumstances.

[nissanguy_24]

Originally posted by Emagdnim
In the drift bible when Tsuchiya demostrates the brake drift he says the three important things here are when to turn in, when to shift down, and how much you brake, he also goes on to talk about the importantance of what rpm your at when you release the clutch. The technique you described is correct as long you can enter and exit the turn in the same gear. Which is every coner in an automatic, but isn't always the case with a manual.

I don't think any one technique can be consider "true" braking drift as there are too many different circumstances.

Your right, but these guys need to practice gettng the rear out before they worry about staying in the right gear threw a corner. For the more advanced guys its another story. But for first learning it they need to learn that. Or else i fear they are simply going to learn a clutching technique and not the actual braking technique.

[baboon's a$$]

here's a real simple explanation these other guys get WAYYYYY too technical.


this requires left foot braking, if you can't hit the brake without hitting the clutch or gas then you need some practice.

stabbing the break in a quick hard press with your left while turning in will cause the rear to rotate towards the front then modulate the gas paddle to control the drift. It really helps to be in the power band of your car. it should go like this ( well this is how I do it)

1. enter turn at decent speed depending on length and radius second or third is usually best dpepnds on where the power band is on you car.

2. as you turn in stab brake, the front end should dip and the car SHOULD start to rotate.

3. counter-steer and modulate gas (I'll be honest with it's easiest with a good 2-way lsd, that way you get instant lock on both wheels instead of 1 locking first and either spinning you around or causing your car to go straight.)

I coud go on and on about brake balance control and front versus rear bias but it's all just crap. Just go out and have fun. If you're worried about looking good while drifting or totally agonizing over one small facet of a technique then you're in the wrong hobby. Go do some car shows or burnouts or something.

[Drift For Food]

Braking and feint were the first two methods I learned with when I started drifting. Being a fwd boat(Buick Lesabre) and a handy dandy foot e-brake, I didn't have much choice, lol.

To stay simple, braking basically makes the front have more traction and the rear have less traction. This is due to the added weight that you removed from the rear and put on the front. More weight, more traction.

When and how you do it varies depending on the corner. It works before or during steering and even after you've started a drift, and it always does the same thing.

Before - shifts weight to the front. You have to turn immediately after or you will lose the affect, weight will move back and even out quickly.

During - while cornering, probably with a little understeer(have to be near grip limit, i.e. going fast). Brake lightly, weight goes towards front, rear breaks loose and you drift. If it doesn't break loose, brake harder. Brake too hard, front locks up.

After - while drifting you can brake and shift weight forward. Again, you gain more front traction. It's good to get more angle without the use of throttle or if you need to reduce speed while drifting.


Drifting simulator? Live for Speed (LFS) Lots of fun, awesome physics. It's helped me a lot when learning to drift. I was drifting with this for a few months before I ever did anything with my car. Even during, it taught me. Any advanced stuff can be tested virtually and safely as well. 100mph 300 foot braking drift into a corner, go for it. 140mph 360 into a drift around a 60mph corner at 1000 feet with no braking, sure. Fun fun. Demo's free too. Note: it would probably take a good month too get comfortable and decent with the game. Also, a force feedback wheel and pedals are a good thing to have.

[mranlet]

This is not a subject change but rather a simple tangent to the subject. I'd be happy to open another thread discussing this at greater length but I'm sure that there are others out there already:

Gran Tourismo 3, as much as the "purists" will turn up their noses, can really help a young driver learn basic techniques. If you read through the manual you'll see that they discuss things such as braking pre-turn-in and why it helps. I believe that there is also an explaination of the traction circle and how a tire acts under driving forces (GT2's double manuals come to mind, with one explaining how to play the game and the other explaining simple automotive physics). The extremely thorough technical replay mode is great too, as it shows how much steering, throttle, and braking input you are giving and you can see in real time how it effects the car.

Even if you are PS2-less, the $200 it would cost to buy the system and game could be 10x more beneficial than spending $200 on tires and "wreckless driving" tickets (one night for some people). If you combine the exquisite physics engine of the game with guidance from a book like "Going Faster" or "Secrets of Solo Racing" then your understanding of what goes on in a race or drift car will accelerate that much more.

Yeah, maybe GT3 is just a game, but it is a game that is based on extensive research and has been developed by people who know.

-MR

[marshun]

Originally posted by mranlet
This is not a subject change but rather a simple tangent to the subject. I'd be happy to open another thread discussing this at greater length but I'm sure that there are others out there already:

Gran Tourismo 3, as much as the "purists" will turn up their noses, can really help a young driver learn basic techniques. If you read through the manual you'll see that they discuss things such as braking pre-turn-in and why it helps. I believe that there is also an explaination of the traction circle and how a tire acts under driving forces (GT2's double manuals come to mind, with one explaining how to play the game and the other explaining simple automotive physics). The extremely thorough technical replay mode is great too, as it shows how much steering, throttle, and braking input you are giving and you can see in real time how it effects the car.

Even if you are PS2-less, the $200 it would cost to buy the system and game could be 10x more beneficial than spending $200 on tires and "wreckless driving" tickets (one night for some people). If you combine the exquisite physics engine of the game with guidance from a book like "Going Faster" or "Secrets of Solo Racing" then your understanding of what goes on in a race or drift car will accelerate that much more.

Yeah, maybe GT3 is just a game, but it is a game that is based on extensive research and has been developed by people who know.

-MR

yup. gt3 isnt real life. but its physics are right up there. i posted about this before (idunno if it was here) but people got all upset ab out it. and these are the same people who say they can drift. if you can drift with different techniques in gt3, then its easier to apply to real life since you have a better understanding of the physics that go with each technique. im seriously not bullshitting on this.