Heel and Toe?

[Brothaman240]

Heal Toe for drifting? righhhhhtttttt

you guys go head, ill stick to clutch kicking

[Thai Juku]

Depends on the drift I guess...

[bluballz]

Originally posted by GRiDRaceTech
Clay and Marshun- I just watched a couple of my drifting videos. Orido shifted mid-turn because he lost momentum in a Levin, and there was this one Civic drifter who downshifted mid-drift, but that was it. Otherwise, no one else shifted mid-drift. Keiichi didn't even do it in the clip from the Drift Bible that I have. Oh, but maybe he's not as good as you guys.

Gimme a break... shifting mid-corner disrupts both balance and power delivery. When balancing a car that is over the edge of available traction, I can't imagine why anyone would do it. When it comes to grip circumstances, it's absolutely an amateur mistake.

WTF??? how old are those vids?? must be from the 80s...anyways you obviously havent drifted in 3rd gear b4.
if your going into 3rd you will have to downshift at some point in the drift as you slow down. i suguest you get some track time b4 you post up stuff like that.


as for heal toe, its mostly used for grip driving and not drifting. drifters do use it on occasion but not to often. i think you guys are watchin to much inital d.

p.s. i know, i know... my spelling sucks

[Thai Juku]

Originally posted by bluballz
WTF??? how old are those vids?? must be from the 80s...anyways you obviously havent drifted in 3rd gear b4.
if your going into 3rd you will have to downshift at some point in the drift as you slow down. i suguest you get some track time b4 you post up stuff like that.


as for heal toe, its mostly used for grip driving and not drifting. drifters do use it on occasion but not to often. i think you guys are watchin to much inital d.

p.s. i know, i know... my spelling sucks

Whoa, whoa, slow down turbo...wouldn't want to upset some people on your 1st post now would ya? If somebody makes a mistake, don't shove it into other peoples' faces...I'm not lecturing you, but it's just a lil fyi. This is your 1st post in all...Not that you know a lot about drifting or not...

[CrazyHawaiian]

I can heel toe the clutch and the gas man. For me its more like heel and middle of foot. hahahah

[malcolm]

I'm may be wrong but isn't heel toe relatively similiar to double clutching

um, no.

double-clutching can be used in conjunction with heel-and-toeing, but it isn't totally required. If you look at all the Best Motoring videos, none of the drivers there double-clutch, but they all heel-and-toe.

Here's how you do it:

heel and toe without double clutch

you're in fourth gear, you hit the brakes with the left side of your right foot. then, you put in the clutch, bring the gear lever to neutral, blip the gas with the right side of your right foot, put the gear lever in third, let out the clutch, and then continue braking.

heel and toe with double clutch

you're in fourth gear, you hit the brakes with the left side of your right foot. then, you put in the clutch, bring the gear lever to neutral, let out the clutch, blip the gas with the right side of your right foot, put in the clutch again, put the gear lever in third, let out the clutch, and then continue braking.

now, think about it from a technical point of view: if you leave the clutch in (ie. don't double clutch), then the input shaft in the gearbox will slow down or stop, while the output shaft stays spinning at road speeds. When you then put it into a lower gear, it uses the synchros to synchronize the speeds of the shafts so you don't grind the gears.

when you let out the clutch for your blip, you are using the engine to accelerate that shaft to synchronize it, and it takes all the stress off the synchros.

Also, you can double-clutch on upshifts. This is only really used for gearboxes that have problems (worn synchros, damaged dog rings, etc), or in big trucks. I had to resort to double-clutching on upshifts once during a race, because the reverse-lockout system in the gearbox failed, and it went into reverse instead of fifth gear. reverse desinigrated, and the metal bits chewed up all the synchros, so I had to double clutch on all upshifts and downshifts to be able to shift.

Go to howstuffworks.com and do some research on how gearboxes work. It's interesting, and it will allow you to make sense of what I have said.


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oh, and for drifting, heel-and-toeing can be used, but it won't initiate a drift. I sometimes heel-and-toe, and then leave the clutch in just a little longer, to allow the revs to drop, but that just has the same effect as a clutch kick.

[GRiDRaceTech]

Bluballz- First, read my grammar and spelling primer in OT. Second, the videos were from the Drift Bible, and some (Best Motoring?) video with Orido drifting a Levin, which looked only slightly tuned. I also watched a street drift video (with excellent drivers) to glean whatever I could about technique. I suppose I'll also have to watch Drift Bible when it comes in today.

Fact is that I am a grip driver, first and foremost. In the grip world, to downshift mid-corner is looked at as about the dumbest thing one could do while cornering. Considering that drifting is roughly as hard as grip driving, it would simply make sense to not downshift mid-drift. I am going to scour all sources for videos, watch all videos intently, and record each time a driver downshifts mid-drift. Then, I will get back to you all with my findings. If I am wrong, I will humbly acknowledge so. If I am right, I will simply state that downshifting mid-drift is not common.

Brothaman- Have you read everything in this thread and the e-brake thread in order to learn about heel-toeing? You come off as ignorant when you make a statement such as "you guys go head, ill stick to clutch kicking." If you had been paying any attention at all, you would realize that heel-toe is a rev-matching downshift method, not even related to initiating or keeping a drift.

[malcolm]

good call grid. I am mainly a grip driver too. Well, I do drift a bit on entry to medium speed corners, but that's so I can take the corner faster and get a better exit speed. I love the physics of racing and drifting...

[pio_masaki]

Well everyone keeps mentioning downshifting in mid drift as being stupid, and whatnot, but from what I understand (and no, I don't know anything) heel and toe + a double clutch would be used entering the drift (not initiating it) and not really in mid drift..I figured it was a method used to set the weight transfer and balance, and the double clutch itself would be used to get into gear FOR the drift/exit, not so much to actually be used in the middle of it, since it would already be in gear, why would you need to downshift?

Yes I have been reading this thread, and yes I read the ebrake thread, and yes, I am still new to it and I'm still researching on the techniques used. I don't, however, have much in the way of drift videos to watch, short of a couple dvds that featured drifts, but not much in the way of driver technique shots.

I also wanted to mention something about Grids post, I also don't know much about high speed grip driving, and I could only imagine that Grip driving, while being equally difficult, or even more, is different from drift, so why would something like downshifting in mid turn being stupid in the grip driving world have anything to do with it being used in drift driving?

I'm not trying to be disrespectful or anything like that, I'm just trying to understand your POV, thats all. I would agree that in grip driving it would be a mistake to downshift in mid turn, especially with the weight being moved around while already on the threshold of the tires grip.

[SilviaLove]

After writting that last post i can say that i wasn't thinking straight. I did a search of some creditable sites to make sure though. Here is a good article heel to shifting

[marshun]

Originally posted by GRiDRaceTech
Clay and Marshun- I just watched a couple of my drifting videos. Orido shifted mid-turn because he lost momentum in a Levin, and there was this one Civic drifter who downshifted mid-drift, but that was it. Otherwise, no one else shifted mid-drift. Keiichi didn't even do it in the clip from the Drift Bible that I have. Oh, but maybe he's not as good as you guys.

Gimme a break... shifting mid-corner disrupts both balance and power delivery. When balancing a car that is over the edge of available traction, I can't imagine why anyone would do it. When it comes to grip circumstances, it's absolutely an amateur mistake.

did you even look at the turn that keiichi is taking? the angle doesnt change! its a *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored*in u-turn.

watch any option video with in-car footage of guys taking turns that go from one big sweep down to a smaller turn. they ALL down shift.

i've been drifting for 4 years and you think i dont know what im talking about?

[malcolm]

I think you guys are not understanding each other.

No-one changes gear mid corner, however, people do change gears while approaching a corner. The confusing part is that some people drift while approaching a corner, therefore they need to downshift while they are drifting and slowing down for the corner.

However, once you start powering through the corner (just before the apex, and through the corner), you can't shift, because you are steering with the throttle.

hope that cleared it up a bit...

[clay payton]

yooooo...

I didn't mean that people shift WHILE during the burnouts/wheels spinning drifts (power drifts), I'm saying this, and it's very basic:

approach a turn hot, say in third gear
start your drift using a braking drift technique
down shift to second and continue through the drift using power drift techniques instead of breaking drift techniques.


in a couple of the early drift tengoku videos (2 - 5) they have in car lessons with all the drivers, and you can cleary see what they are doing, and the method I'm mentioning is taniguchi's.

you absolutely have to heel-toe it.

i don't see how there is any arguement over this?

[Craftsman]

Originally posted by malcolm
Also, you can double-clutch on upshifts. This is only really used for gearboxes that have problems (worn synchros, damaged dog rings, etc), or in big trucks. I had to resort to double-clutching on upshifts once during a race, because the reverse-lockout system in the gearbox failed, and it went into reverse instead of fifth gear. reverse desinigrated, and the metal bits chewed up all the synchros, so I had to double clutch on all upshifts and downshifts to be able to shift.

Actually, this is very insightful... Thanks for the info.

Matt.

[bluballz]

ok, i guess there was some confusion here. it is very true that it would be dumb to downshift in the midle of a turn while grip driving. you would want to down shift befor entering the turn.

but as for drifting, a lot of times you are sliding way before the turn, so you would need to downshift inorder to complete the turn. try watch some of the d1 races. just about everyone enters the turn drifting in 3rd and downshifts to 2nd mid drift.

[GRiDRaceTech]

I watched quite a few drift videos and found out that in constant radius, U, or very high speed drifts there is no downshifting involved. However, when the vehicle is lacking power, losing momentum, or in a decreasing radius drift, it appears that there is usually a downshift mid-drift. Thus, I would say that a shift mid-drift is not uncommon at all. I will not say I was partially wrong, because that's pointless. I was indeed FULLY WRONG in my thought. Downshifting mid-drift is relatively common. Marshun, blu... my apologies.

pio- If you think about it, even in drifting the tire has a traction threshold. Even though it is over the "grip" traction threshold, it still has some traction. This is a delicate balance that usually should not be messed with, but then again, these guys are pros.

[marshun]

Originally posted by GRiDRaceTech
I watched quite a few drift videos and found out that in constant radius, U, or very high speed drifts there is no downshifting involved. However, when the vehicle is lacking power, losing momentum, or in a decreasing radius drift, it appears that there is usually a downshift mid-drift. Thus, I would say that a shift mid-drift is not uncommon at all. I will not say I was partially wrong, because that's pointless. I was indeed FULLY WRONG in my thought. Downshifting mid-drift is relatively common. Marshun, blu... my apologies.

pio- If you think about it, even in drifting the tire has a traction threshold. Even though it is over the "grip" traction threshold, it still has some traction. This is a delicate balance that usually should not be messed with, but then again, these guys are pros.

its not a problem. its just when i try to tell people theyre wrong people get bent out of shape about it instead of seriously considering what im saying.

[pio_masaki]

Originally posted by GRiDRaceTech

pio- If you think about it, even in drifting the tire has a traction threshold. Even though it is over the "grip" traction threshold, it still has some traction. This is a delicate balance that usually should not be messed with, but then again, these guys are pros.

I figured there was always SOME traction there since throttle input also gives forward input, but thanks for letting me know for sure!

[malcolm]

with any object, there are two forces of friction: static and dynamic. when you are gripping, the tire will have more grip than when it is spinning. When I have more time, I'll get into the physics behind why a drift is faster than total grip.

craftsman - no problem man, we can all learn stuff... hell, I am racing this weekend, and I bet I'll learn a load of new things.... or, at least, I hope so!

[RyanHampton]

Originally posted by malcolm
with any object, there are two forces of friction: static and dynamic. when you are gripping, the tire will have more grip than when it is spinning. When I have more time, I'll get into the physics behind why a drift is faster than total grip.

craftsman - no problem man, we can all learn stuff... hell, I am racing this weekend, and I bet I'll learn a load of new things.... or, at least, I hope so!

In what way is drifting faster? In slow corners or fast ones? Are you talking about rotating the car or "drifting".

Confuscious say: Tire rolling faster than tire sliding.....

[GRiDRaceTech]

Well, there's a certain slip angle (the angle of the tire's path to the car's true path, in a very simple nutshell) range through which the tire operates at its peak. (6-10 degrees for most race and high-performance street tires, usually) Below that range, the tire is being under-used and is not delivering full grip. Above that range, the tire is being over-used and is not delivering full grip. We consider over-use to be a fully sliding condition. In truth, the fastest way around a track is in a very subtle four-wheel slide around every corner to utilize the tires to their fullest. If the front tires are at a higher slip angle than the rear, then the car is understeering; if the rear tires are at a higher slip angle, then the car is oversteering.

Thus, drifting/excessive oversteer is not usually faster than grip except in instances when understeer is severe. (Very tight turns, mostly) I use initial oversteer to rotate my car and get it pointed the right way, and to overcome understeer.

Confuscious say: Tire sliding ever so much faster than tire gripping absolutely or sliding greatly.

[Thai Juku]

I heel-toe my integra sometimes...It's easy for me, not that helps any of you...Anyway, it's all about the rhythm and going into for me, don't know about you guys. I wear size 9 iverson 3 basketball shoes, its a fairly wide shoe. It can cover the brake and gas pretty well. I guess thats all I can say about it...


*I didn't read any of the posts up above when I typed this cuz, I'm lazy...

[Craftsman]

yea, your traction Radius is much greater when you're not sliding. Therefore you can apply more power to the pavement.

Drifting is not faster than non-drifting. The only case where this is not true is on decreasing radius turns. If you can do a perfect drift, decreasing raduis turns are faster done sideways because of the nature of the turn, but anything like increasing radius, or S-turns, drifting is only going to add precious seconds to your time.

Going back to the traction circle, you can carry more speed when you're within the static traction circle. When you're drifting, the traction circle decreases by 10-20%.

Matt.

[GRiDRaceTech]

Actually, if you had read the above post carefully, you would've realized that the fastest way to go around a track is slightly sliding.

The traction circle's outermost limit is the absolute maximum of a tire's traction. It is also a sliding state when talking about the lateral acceleration axis, also known as cornering. It is a rolling state in the braking and moving acceleration axis. (In acceleration from a stop, it's a very very subtle slip, which then becomes a rolling state) When using very large slip angles, just like Craftsman said, the tire is making much less grip than using very small slip angles. I'll get some diagrams up sometime within the week to explain this better.

[malcolm]

also, even when you are "gripping" totally in a corner, there is still some slip to the tire (unless you have perfect four-wheel steering).

also, it's usually only for medium to lower speed corners where a slight drift upon entry will help you. The car rotates, so you don't have to use as much energy to rotate the car mid corner, and you can use more to accelerate. If you know a lot about the traction circle, you'll know that if you have less steering to do, you can accelerate harder (reducing the lateral force vector, and thus being able to increase the longitudinal force vector without breaking traction).

I did a lot of this on the weekend. I was driving a car with a locked rear end, and it had a tendency to want to understeer, especially in slow corners. The team-owner wanted me to go about 2 tenths faster, so I thought about applying that logic in a place I hadn't thought of before. I found that trail-braking with that car required a different technique... I had to just keep minimal brake pressure on during turn in, and I was able to break the rear end loose on entry. As I approached the apex, I was able to get on the throttle well before the apex, and accelerate through the corner (and therefore have a killer run up a long, uphill straight). That likely accounted for 4 of the six tenths I was able to improve the next day.

anyway, here's a thoery I had that I posted on another forum: (just some thoughts going through my head...)

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the "edge" is not really an edge so-to speak. It is more like a line. the closer you are to the line, the faster you will go. If you are always a certain amount away from that line, whether before it or beyond it, you will lose the same amount of time (doing an all out drift will be as slow as only pushing to 80% of the limit).

The way I look at it is like it is a sine curve, as seen below. The "amplitude" is the distance between the dark, horizontal line with numbers on it and the various curves.



In my theory, the absolute highest amount of grip will be on that black horizontal line. Of course, that would be perfect, which is virtually impossible. Anyone can take a car to the limit, but if they are not smooth, then their car will constantly be going over the limit and under the limit erratically, illustrated by the green line. The smoother the driver, the straighter that line will be, like the purple line.

Now, we bring in friction. A tire in total grip will be able to extert a higher force on the road than one that is slipping (think about when you are stuck in the snow... your best bet is to feed in the throttle slowly, not mash it to the floor and spin the tires at 150 km/h).

If a driver is right on the limit of adhesion, then when he pushes it beyond that limit, the car breaks loose, then it gains traction, etc, etc. Therefore his level of grip is going up and down, thus making it harder to control, and likely slower. Now if he pushes just a *little* harder so the "bottom of his sine curve" is just slightly above that limit (ie. a slight drift), then he can be smoother, because there is the same amount of grip throughout the corner. Rather than suddenly gaining and losing traction as he goes through the corner, he has the same traction all the way through. With varying traction, the sidewalls of the tires are flexing, the suspension is moving, and the car is upset, so the actual grip level of the tire is most likely lowered anyway. With a slight drift, everything is constant, so the actual grip level of the tire is likely higher (ie. no flexing tires, no moving suspension, and the car is stable).

So, according to my theory, a slight drift is theoretically slower, because you have less total traction. However, in practice, a slight drift is faster 99% of the time because the driver is only dealing with one grip level, and it keeps the car more stable. This technique can be used in pretty much all corners, whether initiated by trail-braking, or just allowing the tail to come out under power.

Also, with a slight drift, if it begins to understeer, you can quickly lift off the throttle, which will loosen the rear, and give the front more grip. If you were just gripping, and it began to understeer, now you have to stop your front tires from sliding and bring them to a grip situation, and take your rear tires from a grip situation, and begin to slide them. This would require a very harsh lift of the throttle and would upset the car way more than you would need to if the car was already drifting. The other option would be to let off the throttle gently, and straighten out the front wheels. Now you have slowed down, missed your apex (by about half a car width or more), and now you're in the marbles with your outside tires... Major loss of time.

There is yet more to add to the debate. It takes energy to rotate the car. Michael Schumacher and Ayrton Senna were masters at rotating the car before the apex of the corner, so less actual turning needed to be done. Essentially, they would drift the car toward the apex, the car would stop drifting around the apex, and then they could grip out of the corner, thus using the increased traction from the tire gripping. I have used it to some success on some corners in the Corvette and the Radical. You can get a lof the rotation out of the way before the corner, all while slowing down the car all the way to the apex (which means you can go deeper into the corner). It's not something that most drivers can do straight out of the box, but with practice, it is an excellent technique that can allow you to go later on the brakes, and get a better run out of the corner. This also shows that drifting can be slightly faster with this technique, used mainly in medium to slow speed corners.

So yeah, I'd say drifting is faster.