I've read drifting 101 parts 1 through 3.....

[jasonaries]

Alrighty, I've read drifting 101 parts 1 through 3. Then I read that super thread on heel and toe which ended up discussing grip vs. drift tire physics. Now, I've got a question.

If a sliding tire is slower than a rolling tire, then isn't one really good reason to initiate a drift simply to undergo quick deceleration while gaining the bonus of rotating the car for a nice exit angle?

[mranlet]

Under what circumstance?

In short, yes, but usually this only makes sense to do in Gymkhana races where the turns are really really tight.

A tire is not able to do nearly as much work while it is sliding as it will when it is gripping, so it is still quicker to brake and turn under grip than to turn with a drift (most of the time).

-MR

[s15dreamer00]

uh yeah why else do you think the E-brake is used?

[Drift For Food]

In terms of pure speed, yes, grip is faster. There's no doubt about that. The simple laws of physics tell us that static friction(tire gripping) is higher than kinetic friction(sliding tire). This means we can turn corners faster under grip conditions...on pavement

However, when we get to deformable surfaces like dirt, gravel, mud, etc... we gain some interesting attributes when cars get sideways. In these situations, it can, although not always, be faster to drift a corner than grip because we can actually use the tire to dig into the ground some and gain us some traction.

Despite the disadvantage of speed with dirfting, most of us here aren't drifting for speed. We do it for fun and for a better understanding of our cars in loss of traction situations, controlled sliding

[jasonaries]

Alright, I'm getting a perspective on this. I do believe that grip driving most turns is faster. I put equal stock in the opinion that drifting some of the tightest corners is faster. Now, what I need to do is go and investigate where the dividing line is. Just HOW tight must a turn be before drifting becomes an advantage. I need to investigate how uphill, downhill, wet conditions, and road texture affect the decision point to go with drift or grip. Oh, wait a sec - I still need to practice basic drifting techniques in a safe and controlled environment, first! I'll file this info for future use. It'll give me a healthy sense of anticipation and something to be optimistic about.

Thanks, guys.

[Ghost of Duluth]

Excellent, question answered, good information. Let's not run it into the ground with 50 replies. Trying to clean things up round here.

[mranlet]

You're cleaning up this one horse town?

Your avatar would suggest that you've got the goods to do so.

-MR

[malcolm]

sorry to add more to the debate, but people often forget that it takes energy to rotate a car. That's why F1 cars have all the weight in the centre (it lowers the moment of inertia of the car, so it can rotate faster. this helps for turn in).

On *some* slow corners, it helps to drift on entry a *little* bit. No more than about 5 degrees of yaw. We're not talking about some huge, showboating, smoky drift... This is subtle.

You can initiate it with a bit of trail-braking, and yes, it can help you continue to slow down as you turn in, thus allowing you to brake a little later. Also, it helps rotate the car early, so less rotation needs to take place at and beyond the apex.

For a beginning driver, don't worry about this. Get to know what lines you need in each corner, and work your way up until you are going as fast as you can while gripping. THEN, you can start to see what effects trail-braking has, and if it is a hinderance (sp?) or a help.

As for what corners are better to trail-brake into, that's totally subjective. Some drivers might not benefit from doing it into corner X, whereas others might. Also, every corner is different, so there isn't one rule that can be applied successfully.

Just experiment, and try to find what feels best and what gives you a higher speed down the next straight, and looks best on the stop-watch.

[prodigy]

Originally posted by jasonaries


If a sliding tire is slower than a rolling tire, then isn't one really good reason to initiate a drift simply to undergo quick deceleration while gaining the bonus of rotating the car for a nice exit angle?

You have that backwords. Sliding friction is less than rolling friction, I took physics and we covered this. This is why they invented ABS and that is why you were taught to flutter the brack pedal in drivers training when your car starts to slide. It doesn't matter what surface you are on, sliding friction is always going to be less than rolling friction.

[Drift For Food]

I think you misunderstood the context of the word slower. You're right in terms of slower when braking, i.e. it takes longer to brake when your tires are sliding. However, if you put the word slower into the context of corner speed, then it's right. When drifting, i.e. sliding, you will go around a corner slower due to the lower amount of overall traction. In this context, he was right in the manner he spoke it. He can clarify as to which context he meant, lol.

Jason, as far as grip versus drift, I don't think any amount of corner tightness will affect the debate of drift versus grip. Grip will always be faster on pavement, notice I said pavement as it's not deforable. The only point in tightness that I see where drift will be faster than grip is if the corner in question is of a smaller radius than your car is capable of turning at full steering lock. You can't physically turn as sharp as the corner and would actually need to stop, back up some, and continue to go around the corner. In this situation, the rotation needed isn't possible under grip but can be done by sliding the car around.

I've thought about the inertial rotation as well and wondered if there would be a point where it would become more benificial to rotate the car by sliding versus steering the car around. I don't remember what I came up with, but just thinking about it now, I could only see it helping in very low traction environments, ice for example. It's a matter of if the energy required to rotate the car is so great that it outweighs the loss of traction from sliding.

Now, on deformable surfaces like gravel, snow, mud, etc... it's a different story.


Malcolm made a good point about trail braking. For speed, it is an option. Since at the beginning of a corner, you don't need all the front traction to turn the car, you can still use some to do some braking. You can brake hard and then soften as you steer sharper and sharper. It makes a smooth transition between braking and cornering as well as uses the full amount of the front tire's traction. It also keeps weight forward, so you have more front traction and can help take car of some understeer problems. However, you have to be careful not to brake and steer too much at the same time. Once the tires lose traction, you'll get understeer. You have to walk a fine line.

[jasonaries]

I agree with Prodigy: Sliding tires don't bring the car to a stop faster. Anyone who has slammed on the brakes in the rain knows that. That's why squeeze braking technique was invented before ABS.

[malcolm]

you guys need to remember that when you say "total grip is faster," you're referring to a perfectly handling car built specificly for racing. Some cars have a tendency to understeer... also, for road courses, there is always compromise in set-up.

Also, I am not talking about drifting all the way through the corner. You can drift on entry, then grip from the apex onward. that way, you get the car rotated more than with grip, so you can accelerate earlier.

Like I've said before, Senna and Schumacher were/are amazing at this. Read anything about their style, and you'll find that even they took an earlier apex, with a fair amount of oversteer (relative to other drivers), and somehow made it work. The teams couldn't make an accurate computer model for their driving style, and they consistantly beat the computer-predicted "best time" whereas other drivers were usually a few tenths off...

[Pennyman]

That's amazing how they could actually beat the projected best times. I guess it's a scaled down version of what the Blue MR2 does in Initial D 3rd Stage, how it jumps the corners on the downhill. Subtract the huge jump, and you have an exaggerated version of what we are talking about here. You slide the rear end early to bring the tail around just enough to aim you at the exit and then accelerate out of it faster than the guy who takes the corner totally under grip. Ah I understand now, hehe.

[PhoPower]

that technique is very useful. ive used it on a track of course

[malcolm]

yeah, I use it for some of the medium to slow speed corners on the circuits I've raced on. I could name a few, but I doubt many on these forums even know what Mosport is, let alone each individual corner... :P

[zdss14]

what about your engine, i read some wear that rally drivers sometimes slide to keep the revs up, will it work on pavement?

[malcolm]

not really... that's more in the category of acceleration, not cornering. They would want to keep their revs up on the exit of the corner, not on entry, which is what I was talking about for the most part...

On asphalt, if you are below your needed rev-range, you should just be in a lower gear. The only exception to that rule that I can think of is a direct-drive vehicle, like a kart, where there is only one gear ratio, and it would be better to modulate the wheel spin rather than to let the engine bog down...

[jasonaries]

Re: drift on entry/grip after apex & real world vs. computer modeling comparisons.

Thanks, Malcolm - that's the kind of stuff I'm fishing for here. I'm hoping to get a good look at both sides of the coin so I can compair what I read to my experiences later when I go out and start trying this stuff. I'm one of those advance planner types who annoys the heck out of people by gathering the whole scoop before diving into something.

[TeamSLIPdrifter]

I have a question about all this. In grip vs. drift on a track its faster without a doubt. but what about when your apex is extremely tight like in a 2 lane mountain pass like the use in some WRC races. Wouldnt it be more benefitial to drift into the apex and grip out. Id imagine you can use alot more speed and the car already rotating and sideways would be very good for the exit. In WRC they always gutter grip and thats how the author of Initial D came up with it. You can see that the inside edge is always slightly raised and they dip the tires in but ive seen drivers like Redd in the old Evo V RS slide into the apex on tight turns without much room. He would use a misfire to keep the turbo spooled and when he gripped the exit of the turn keeping to turbo spooled it let him accelerate extremely fast out. So wouldnt that be a condition where drift is faster then grip? And yes, this was on a paved surface.

[mranlet]

Yeah that happens. That's why there's so much tight drifting in Gymkhana. If you can carry more momentum and rev's through the turns you'll be able to swing around faster. Also by having the accelerative force of the wheels conuteracting the forces of inertia, you can have your car produce more lateral G's (in a roundabout way) by essentially aiming the drive force towards the center of the turn.

A lot of the WRC drivers use drift techniques on tarmac stages that are too tight - it's hot!

-MR

[TeamSLIPdrifter]

Cool, thanks for the help.

[Drift For Food]

Yeah, I've watched WRC and noticed on the tighter corners, even on pavement, they will usually drift it some. I'm not certain the reasone behind it. They are turbo, so keeping revs up may have a part. Also, I'm not sure if their steering angle is limitted any for better control. If so, they may drift because they don't actually have the steer angle to take the corner under grip(although I actually haven't noticed any of them appearing not able to turn sharp enough...). It may be the 4wd platform too. With 4wd, your front tires not only steer but also provide some of the acceleration. Too much throttle durring heavy steering will result in understeer. Drifting tight corners may be their way of preventing understeer and allow the ability for heavy throttle through the corner. It's an interesting concept of the point usefulness between drift and grip. Grip offers more usable traction always. However, little things like dropping revs or having to shift to a lower gear and back up again, may take out some of the advantage of grip when corners get very tight.

[scirocco]

scientifically, trail-braking and power over do allow you to brake and put down power in the exact direction you want, just not as much. Think about it this way: when you decelerate in a straight line, you will be on the edge of grip, if you are very good, when gong through the corner. When you slide, you can be farther into the corner (almost at the clipping point) and just be finished braking. When you power over (step on the gas at corner exit or to continue the drift), you put down power straight down the stretch that comes after the corner exit, past the clipping point. it also keeps you moving on the edge of front tire grip if done properly. its all about physics.

if u dont understand this, just think about this: lap times for keiichi tsuchiya are better the more he drifts (by FULL seconds). How do you think he got the title , the "Drift King"? he drifted in GT500 before anybody did that at all.

if u stil dont get it, there's always the search button and http://www.howstuffworks.com

btw, as soon as the car is straight you want to let of the gas just enough to maintain grip so you can max out your acceleration on the upcoming straight. Also, feint is no good unless u hav horrendous understeer (almost as bad as in an FF) in which case you usually want to side drift (E-brake). btw even tsuchiya-san says you can use the E-brake if you want and taniguchi habitually uses it so quit complaining.

[jasonaries]

Alrighty, then. My knowledge of physics+my intuition+forum member input = a combination which makes me think there is definitely a time and place for each: drifting and gripping. So, then, it's up to me to go find out where the dividing line is.... this should be interesting....