Non-ABS Drifting

[180sx2nr8u]

ok so, i know its harder to drift a car without abs than one with it, but would it be wise to disable the abs on a car in order to practice? then once you get good, you can enable it and drift much better? is there a way to even do this? try not to flame me plz, i just wanted to know how u guys practice.

[ACDSupra7]

If you wannna disable the ABS, pull the fuse. And for the rest of your questions, try for yourself. I'm not trying to be mean, it's just not a good advice to base things you do in high speed driving off what someone tells you on the internet. (With a few exceptions, mranlet, ghost, smc, grid, etc...)

[GRiDRaceTech]

It's actually no harder to drive a car without ABS than one with ABS on dry pavement, provided you know the car's limits. As long as you know how to threshold brake and have a feel for the feeling of the tires almost-locking, ABS is superfluous in the dry; in fact, not only is it superfluous, it's slower. However, in the rain, ABS is faster. In SoCal, I don't even consider ABS in my "must-have" options list.

ABS isn't this thing that makes drifting a piece of cake, it just prevents the tires from locking for an extended period of time. (Which is something you can condition yourself to do, but it takes time and tires to control it well enough.) Really, there shouldn't be any time while initiating a drift that one should have the brakes on hard enough to lock them.

[Drift For Food]

My new car has abs and I hate it. It does actually prevent you from doing some things by limitting how long you can lock the tires. I drift on gravel, and on many occations wished I didn't have abs. On loose surfaces like gravel and snow/ice, abs is very bad for actually slowing down. Sure it allows you to slam on the brakes and still be able to steer, but there are situations where you DO want all 4 tires locked up or maybe just a pair. I started without abs, progressed without abs, and 9 years later, I still don't want it. I know and prefer a non-abs braking system. I trust myself more on glare ice without abs than with a computer deciding what to do.

As far as drifting is concerned, abs or not abs has little importance. For the most part, braking is never hard enough to lock up the tires. Unless you're coming in very hot or trying to start and hold a slide a ways from the corner entrance, there's not much abs or non-abs systems will affect.

The one thing that abs can never do is lock up and hold all 4 tires still. This is quite useful when things get out of hand and the best thing to do is slide straight to a stop. The sad part is if you have abs, it will basically release the brakes and make you roll again. If you're sliding sideways down the road, this may drive you right into the ditch or something. Having all 4 locked guarantees that your car will remain going in the direction it was traveling until it slides to a stop. With abs, you may or may not do so. You'll start rolling again, and many things can happen depending on angle and which way you're steering. Your car will start rolling and you can't not making it stop.

Abs is one thing I hate on gravel. If I come in fast into a corner, brake hard and the tires start to slide on some loose gravel, my brakes will let off(abs), and my braking ability is cut in half. My only option is to turn very hard into the corner and hope I'll roll out of it well. Non-abs has so much more control at the point of lock up/near lock up(especially on loose/slippery surfaces) once you get used to it. Abs to me is just retarded..or is it for the retarded, lol, sorry bad joke.

I'd suggest to disable it if you can, usually just a fuse. Learn without it. I would on my car if they didn't wire it together with my headlights and cruise control. No abs for me means no low or high beams at night (still have parking and daytime running(half low beam)) and no cruise control.

[scirocco]

straight from initial d...

[nissanguy_24]

Originally posted by scirocco
straight from initial d...

yep

However it brings up serious questions. In my opinion ABS can get in the way of hard braking drifts. I dont know though i've been told by many articals writen by dave coleman from sport compact car that modern ABS is suposed to be really good on asphalt. Unlike the ABS from cars like the S13 and such. And that guy seems to be pretty sharp.. but sence few of us drift new cars i think its a safe bet to just advoid it.

[ACDSupra7]

omg, just because they said some crap about "ABS" in Initial D doesn't mean that abs can't be talked about on ****drifting.com**** without people trying to make themselves look cool by putting down Initial D and the people that posted. There's nothing wrong with Initial D. It's a fine show as long as you don't let it get to your head. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm late for my tofu delivery run

[nissanguy_24]

Originally posted by ACDSupra7
omg, just because they said some crap about "ABS" in Initial D doesn't mean that abs can't be talked about on ****drifting.com**** without people trying to make themselves look cool by putting down Initial D and the people that posted. There's nothing wrong with Initial D. It's a fine show as long as you don't let it get to your head. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm late for my tofu delivery run

Im sorry. i too love initial D the new manga will be this week or next i hear... i own them all.. im such a nerd.

[spiritofFC3s]

i hate abs! It scares the crap out of me when i drive a car with abs. My delivery van at work has it and it actually caused me to get into an accident. I can control a car without abs much better than one with.

[otakugt4]

My 7 doesn't have ABS and I can do anything in it, but the Celica has ABS and have learned how to use it to pull the front end into a corner, it is very cool when you know how to use the features of the car to assist you in manuvours. ABS can be a good thing if you know how to use it, but if you don't it can make things harder.

[GRiDRaceTech]

SMC, Coleman is correct that modern ABS is good, but it just isn't good enough on dry pavement. I've seen dry track tests by very good drivers in Corvettes where the Corvette with disabled ABS laps about .5-sec faster than one with ABS. In the wet, the ABS-equipped 'Vette was two-and-a-half seconds faster.

[nissanguy_24]

Originally posted by GRiDRaceTech
SMC, Coleman is correct that modern ABS is good, but it just isn't good enough on dry pavement. I've seen dry track tests by very good drivers in Corvettes where the Corvette with disabled ABS laps about .5-sec faster than one with ABS. In the wet, the ABS-equipped 'Vette was two-and-a-half seconds faster.

The test(s) (is test both plural and singular or do i need the s?) i usualy see on braking is limited to standard linear deceleration where modern ABS cars tend to do very good. I wonder if the dynamics of a track lends to non ABS for whatever reason.. perhaps allowing the drivers to take the car for split secnds beyond the limit of the ABS kicking in.

[Drift For Food]

I think most abs systems do well in asphalt. That's a given. It's predictable and non-deformable. However, when you get on something loose like gravel or snow and ice, it gets to be a major problem. Braking power is dramatically decreased and stopping distances become far greater. As well, on deformable surfaces, locking up the tires actually increases traction and decreases brake distance. The abs system doesn't understand this. The abs system almost needs some form of g-meter to measure deceleration and modulate between rolling and full lock to see what amount of tire lock up is optimum for the surface at any given second. That way on gravel, it may realize that full lock up decelerates faster and will automatically use it cause it works better...maybe in the future.

Until then, abs just pisses me off, lol.

Oh and yeah, you can learn to use it to your advantage somewhat. For example, coming in fast to a corner and having the abs kick in too easily, I do have the option of steering very hard into the corner and roll through. Since the abs prevents tire lock up, I am able to do this while maintaining maximum allowable braking ability allowed by the abs system. Sure it helps in that aspect, but that's not necessarily good. If the abs didn't kick in as easily, I would have slowed down enough to just go around the corner anyways. Instead, I rely on abs and hope, hope that is slows fast enough that I don't go in the ditch because it's so smart that it decreases brake ability down to 20%. Grr!!! lol

OK, now I'm just complaining and rambling...so I'll shut up now.

[SidewaysGts]

My car doesnt have abs, but dont most cars temporarily disable the abs while your braking if you release and get back on the brake?

ie start braking, release then get back on the brake. abs will be disabled until your finished braking.

[GRiDRaceTech]

No, or at least they shouldn't.

[Drift For Food]

Yeah, I've heard the let off thing before. You can get away with a very short lock up time before the ABS kicks in. You can let off and hit the brakes again to get lock up again, but I think it's somewhat futile with the time it takes to do it. Full brake, no brake, full brake, no brake...is kind of goofy. It seems like a waste trying to get around ABS trying to do so.

[AlexPfeiffer]

You guys have alot of your information wrong.

First off, if you lock up the tires, you get no traction. What gives you traction is the tire being able to grab the road. A non spining tire is just sliding accross the road. Its the same as burning out, the tire looses traction hence it is able to spin on the road.

What ABS does, if you brake too hard and loose traction or lock up a wheel, it will pulse the brakes by means of brake pressure. This allows the tire to keep traction in that it will keep it rolling and not lock up which will make you slide off the road or hit something. This is great for someone who doesnt know how to drive. This is why when you slam on your brakes, you will feel them pulse as you hit the traction limits set in the abs computer.

Now traction control, that is completly different these days. Usually done with multiple sencors and computers in that will tell when the car is over rotating and such. The computer will do multiple things from slowing the car down by taking out some throtle control and using the abs.

Now for drifting, you dont want ABS or traction control. The car will freak out once your sideways and trying to use the brakes and most of the time force the car to go straight. And locking up the front tires is a technic you use in comps.

In racing, a good driver will be fast ether way but the abs can be an advantage in the rain.

[nissanguy_24]

Really in the rain? are modern abs systems "tuned" for the rain? i have heard stories of ABS on gravel and seen some braking test where the abs was just horrid in gravel, but did good on pavement, i guess the explanation being they never designed the abs system to work in the gravel. so i assume its 'pulsing' isnt 'tuned' for gravel. Where as a human can feel it out and apply braking pressure depending on how the car feels.

That said i find it odd that abs systems are superior in the rain, are they designed for it? seems like that would make sense rain is when most regular (and nonregular) drivers get into trouble.

[AlexPfeiffer]

older abs only worked off of wheel sencors only and where not that accurate. Thats why they worked different on rain and gravel.

Todays systems are integrated with the motor. Mostly with throtle by wire systems where it will close the throtle body if you do any kind of irregular driving like hitting or riding the brakes and turning (trail brakeing) or the car starts to over rotate. The system will add brake forces to one or more of the wheels without you knowing it. Not good for race driving but very good for keeping you safe on pubic roads.

[Craftsman]

Rob / SMC. It's car dependent. The ABS computer need to be tuned for each application. The reason the cars suck in gravel is because the ABS computer is not tuned for it. Most automakers plan on cars being used in rain and on concrete and not in dirt. They're also tuned for snow.

This has to do with Control Systems and how the computer has to read the sensors and detect loss of traction. It's quite difficult as all cars require different transfer functions (equations of how to react to different situations) for each application.

Gravel is not something most OEM automakers have to worry about.

Matt.

[blargonator]

what about traction control. i cant really think of many cars. i know the RSX type S is tuned for safety because when you are in neutral (spelling?) you cant get the rpms above 5,500 or 6,500 i cant remember. i think i read something in sport compact car about readjusting the speedometer if you get larger or smaller wheels (in general) would that affect the A.B.S.

another thing is did the S13 always come with A.B.S.? because it was standard in 92 right? oh and i live in Michigan and it sometimes creates horrid situations in the roads that are covered in a thin layer of slush. personally i would rather get the habit of doing that stuff myself.

[Craftsman]

You don't want the S13's ABS...

From what I understand it's sucky... Dave Coleman was saying that in his S13 article. He said avoid the S13's HICAS and ABS... The only cool thing about the HICAS was the fact that that was the only version of the S13 that came with an LSD. LSDs only came with the version with the HICAS.

I believe most of the drifters turn off their HICAS... Correct me if I'm wrong.

Now, I know the HICAS on the Skylines are badass... That's what everyone says. My question... does it suck that bad on the S13s?

Matt.

[SilverGhost]

from what i hear, the hicas on the S13 works really good if you are doing something like autoX...its good and helpful as long as you are doing some hardcore grip driving in your s13...but the moment you go to slide it, you will hate the hicas forever. the hicas system acts like 4 wheel steering at high speeds, so you can do stuff like ebrake drifts at low speeds, which is fun for like 10 minutes, but then when you try to slide at higher speeds, like say a braking drift at 60, the 4 wheel steering kicks in, and it just starts to pull you into a grip mode, and if you are taking a drift line, it might be bad, cause i would imagine that would create mad understeer if you werent planning on it working. so for AutoX i recomend a Super Hicas S13, and for Drift, i recomend R(P)S13 SE (non Hicas) with an aftemarket LSD

[blargonator]

you guys still did not answer my question. did the S13 come stock with ABS for the entire time of its production. like 89,90,91? that is what i mean.

[nissanguy_24]

I too find it funny that such a tiny percentage of S13 owners have ever drove a hicas s13 in america.. so few came with them... yet everyone knows for a fact that its the worse thing for drifting.