FF Cornering

[AusStreetRacer]

Hey,

I'm just looking for some advice on FF cornering.

If I'm using the handbrake to correct the understeer of my FF, should I oversteer, slam on the handy to bring the arse around to oversteer (effectively putting the car about 45 to the direction of travel, then countersteer, or should I simply steer where I want to go and hit handbrake to bring the arse around a bit to help me to go where I'm going.

Is it a matter of prefence? Is one easier? Should I change them up depending on the corner?

I could imagine simply correcting the understeer without first oversteering would be easier as you simply don't need to countersteer.

I would like as much advice on FF cornering as possible.

Also... any advice on hand-brake 180's in an FF would be appreciated. Been trying them and so far I've only managed a hand-brake 90. I don't think I've seen anyone do more than a handbrake 135.

[SaintDrift]

Are you trying to drift the car? What's with all the handbraking?

[Ris4drift]

maybe you should try learning how the brakes work before you worry about the parking brake.

[frictionfighter]

i can rock a handbrake 180 in my crx no problem, and it turns like a maniac too if im going to fast the back slides out by itself. fun car to drive! almost as fun as my roadster

[Parry]

Uhhh....


ok...

First, if you're not trying to hang the rear out cut out all this ebrake-yanking.

Second, if the car has too much understeer as it's set up now there's a few easy things you can do. Run a little more tire pressure in the rear, like 35 front and 40 rear. You could install a stiffer rear swaybar as well, they are usually not expensive or difficult.

Also, work on smoothing out your cornering. Work on being a little more gentle at turn in, don't just cut the wheel. Depending on the car throttle modulation through the corner may be a factor as well.

Know the road and how to use the brakes. Your entry speed sets up the entire corner, so you need to not overcook every corner and then skid through ebraking and understeering like a madman.

There's more advanced stuff from here on out but that's a few easy things.

As far as throwing the 180 goes, come in at a reasonably good clip, feint, and then cut the wheel hard and rip the ebrake and just sorta ride it out.

[SidewaysGts]

Throttle modulation is more then likey a big problem. Itll probably seem weird at first, but dont even touch your gas before the mid point (apex) of the corner. Just try to use the tires to turn the car to the best of their ability. If you can speed up before the apex, your entering too slow.

If your having trouble hitting the apex like this, your entering too fast.

Lfb (left foot braking) is a handry trick to know as well, but its not a cure-all end-all technique. You can get away with a higher enterance speed by using it, and deal with the understeer after the midpoint, but your exit speed will still lack a bit as will your line in most cases. Might be good for passing someone on the inside i guess.

As for this handbrake thing; agreed with everyone else. Dont touch the damn thing, learn to use your normal brakes before you need this thing. if you find yourself in a situation where you do need this youve entered way too fast.

For now worry about your braking, your enterance line, and the corner line. Easily some of the most basic things to learn, but also the hardest to master properly.

[SaintDrift]

Try trailbraking deeper into the corner too.

[frictionfighter]

agreed with parry and sidewaysgts learn the brakes first, when i go into a corner i ease on the brakes before i enter then dont touch the gas till im past the apex otherwise i will understeer like no ones business, and keep your hand off the e brake. FF are not as cool as FRs but they can be hella fun to drive too

[Rooney]

Just go about 10 mph, come up to the corner, slam on the gas, jerk the wheel and slide. Works for my sentra.

[SidewaysGts]

I wouldnt suggest trail braking too much; it can get you out of a jam if you enter too fast so its good to know.. but once again theres that whole tires can only do so much thing. much more effective to stop in as straight a line as possible, then turn in no gas, no brakes, just let the tires do all they can to turn the vehicle. Once yourp ast the apex start getting back on the gas.

Try not to floor it unles your in a pretty underpowered vehicle, your using both your tires to turn and accelerate its pretty easy to exceed their limits. Accelerate too hard while trying to pull out of a corner and youll easily causet he front tires to spin and lose some of their traction, then that nasty under steer shows its head again.

[Rooney]

I got some wide sticky tires on the sentra, they grip and the back slides out while the front pulls me wherever I throw the wheel, I can usually connect my slides just by throwing the steering wheel in the opposite direction.

[Parry]

Yea, as SidewaysGTS alluded to learning to feed in throttle in an FF car is a big part of being quick out of the corners. Because the weight transfer created by accelerating will actually loosen up the drive wheels it's important to modulate the throttle correctly.

You want to be right on the edge where giving more throttle will break the tires free and giving less will reduce your rate of acceleration. You may only be able to give a little throttle to keep things moving around the apex, but as you exit the corner you can get on it harder and harder until you're wide open and pulling away down the straights.

[AusStreetRacer]

Okay. I gave this thread a bad name.

Because I did, I've got way too much advice on things I already know.

I'm already as fast as I'm going to get on any corner whilst grip-driving. My line isn't going to get any better. My entry and exit is good and I nail the apex every single time.

I know for a fact however, that using the handbrake to correct the understeer in an FF is a valid technique - as the rear wheels aren't doing anything to help put the car in the direction you want it to go - they are infact adding to the understeer (hence things like Four Wheel Steer improve cornering). So using the handbrake to bring them around allows the rear tires to help, instead of hinder, your cornering.

You're right - the tire pressure in the back could probably be increased, and a rear sway bar could also be used to help balance the car towards oversteer. However, I'm asking about the actual driving technique - not the setup.

I already use alot of left-foot braking to correct the understeer in the initial cornering.

Throwing the car into the corner is a valid technique too. I use it as well. However I'm still looking for advice, mainly on using the handbrake.

Check out this image. It explains how the rear wheels do infact hinder the cornering. Because a good percentage of the weight of the car is on the rear wheels, that weight simply wants to go in the direction of the rear wheels.

Using just a quick tap on the handbrake brings that weight around to bring it in line with where the front wheels are aiming.

When they lock up, inertia carries the end of the car around and when you release the hand brake, the wheels grip almost instantly, acting against inertia.

Also, because you're not using the normal brakes, you're not slowing down as much and not transferring as much weight to the front wheels which then makes it harder to corner.

The theory is sound in my mind. Just the technique is what I was trying to get help on.

Who here actually drives FF?

[SidewaysGts]

Thatd be somewhat true if the back tires were spinning the same speed, but kepe in mind theyre pulled and their speeds adjusta accordingly. The outside wheel is able to spin faster then the inner wheel blah blah you should understand this crap.

Theres a few other flaws to this. granted a small amount of slip angle benefits almost any platform, the slip angle for ff is pretty small. proper suspension tuning, and even lfb should be enough to create this angle. I suppose a quick tug of the handbrake can help increase the angle if its needed buuut.. ya. Theres a lot of things to consider when doing this, the back end of an ff can really only stay out as long as intertia is forcing it out,or the tires are lockedup/sliding. They cant exactly "slip" like a rwd vehicle can. Once that intertia is gone the wheels grip again the back end will tuck back in pretty fast, this can offset your balance or offset your "rythm" and cause you to make some quick corrections. even the best FF drifters have trouble being "smooth" on exit.

Also, because you're not using the normal brakes, you're not slowing down as much and not transferring as much weight to the front wheels which then makes it harder to corner.

This alone is a good reason no to do it, you want as much weight up front as possible.

Theres a lot wrong with this really, dragging the back wheels is slower then rolling the back wheels.. i can go on but you (hopefully) get the point.

Handbrake = bad.

To sum it up, you really dont gain any lateral force by tugging the handbrake.

[AusStreetRacer]

The idea is not to get the back end out (have the car facing towards the apex), but to get the back end out just enough to have it facing the line you want the centre of gravity of the car to be on.

You might make one quick tug in a corner to do this.

Just on entering to correct the intial understeer, combined with left-footbraking means you can greatly increase you entry speed. Then after you hit the apex and start powering out, if the corner sharpens on exit you might tap it again.

But really only ever one tap would be used. Maybe two or three if it's a hair pin.

I haven't actually used the handbrake much in cornering. I only just recently started trying to get used to the idea of using it to correct initial understeer, and when the corner sharpens on exit.

It did allow me to increase my entry and exit speeds, particularly on sharp corners, and hence overall time.

Combined with left-foot braking it's proved quite useful.

Left foot for the faster corners and handbrake plus a little bit of left foot braking on the sharper corners.

[oki_dlifter]

Originally posted by AusStreetRacer
If I'm using the handbrake to correct the understeer of my FF, should I oversteer, slam on the handy to bring the arse around to oversteer (effectively putting the car about 45 to the direction of travel, then countersteer, or should I simply steer where I want to go and hit handbrake to bring the arse around a bit to help me to go where I'm going.

the first thing, and definately not the second. try the second one going to fast and you'll be paying allot at a body shop.
the way i see it, it really depends on the corner whether or not you use e-brake, small and tight to medium and tight, i personally use the ebrake, but large i only use cornering and brakes to loosen up the rear, but large and uber tight i use the ebrake half way along with lots of acceleration.
the secret to 180's is to not use your brakes!! (unless you f up) just trust your self and the e-brake

[SilverGhost]

my friend got pretty good at that whole balance with the ebrake thing in his civic, and it did improve his cornerng speed jsut a tad, but then once we started really pushing it, he found it overloaded his tires way too much and it eventually caused him to spin out of control and slap the inside of the corner just by barely touching the ebrake...that one mistake caused him about 3 thousand dollars to fix.... so its up to you, it can be helpful, but only to a point...

[Dragoon]

E brakin should only be used on sharper corners for the most part (also helps when you cant turn the steering wheel fast enough on most sharp 180 degree style corners). pending on your cars setup- left foot braking should be plenty for most any other corner.

and ya- over doing in WILL over-load your tires and they will cr@p out on you. so choose carefully what corners its needed on and when other techniques will suffice.

[Parry]

I agree with everyone else.

The ebrake should only be used on very very tight corners that are so low speed that it's actually quicker to rotate the car that way.

The only time you want to be ebraking out the rear in a corner is when you've overcooked and are going to end up in the woods. In that situation ebrake induced oversteer could help you burn off speed and rotate the car.

Also, like Dragoon and others have said a little touch of left foot braking should provide the effect you're trying to get out of excessive use of the ebrake.

File this one with your upshift theory.

[R2K]

Originally posted by Parry
I agree with everyone else.

The ebrake should only be used on very very tight corners that are so low speed that it's actually quicker to rotate the car that way.

The only time you want to be ebraking out the rear in a corner is when you've overcooked and are going to end up in the woods. In that situation ebrake induced oversteer could help you burn off speed and rotate the car.

Also, like Dragoon and others have said a little touch of left foot braking should provide the effect you're trying to get out of excessive use of the ebrake.

File this one with your upshift theory.

Its true Ebrake are better for tight corner... im an FF drifter, so i know... and its true if you end up gonna hit a tree better e brake... because i brake w/ my feet yup i hit a tree. so noe i use ebrake to give more slide...

[SaintDrift]

Originally posted by SidewaysGts
I wouldnt suggest trail braking too much; it can get you out of a jam if you enter too fast so its good to know.. but once again theres that whole tires can only do so much thing. much more effective to stop in as straight a line as possible, then turn in no gas, no brakes, just let the tires do all they can to turn the vehicle. Once yourp ast the apex start getting back on the gas.

I'd tend to agree if it was my car. Trailbraking is a good way to spin, but if he's understeering, trailbraking will give him more grip up front during turn in as well as allowing him to do some late braking and have crazy entry speed.

[SidewaysGts]

My point being its just something to do if if youve messed up or are trying to make a pass, if ur on ur own though and speed is the key thing in mind, theres better methods. The times when using the ebrake in an FF will promote faster times is the same situations where full out drifting (not talking slip angles here) a rwd platform will also be faster.

[Drift For Food]

Well, running fwd for the vast majority of my driving years, I was hoping to provide some advice. Unfortunately, I think everything's been covered.

From the way you sound, you seem to know enough. I think it's just the clout of the e-brake. I don't think it's your answer. I think you're looking in the wrong place.

If the car doesn't behave like you want it to, change it. Change your setup. Your technique can only accomodate so much. Your setup will limit how much you can push your car. If you find the car holding you back, improve it. From your discussions so far, you mention understeer as most of your problem. The higher rear tire pressures should help some. As well, think about a slightly higher rear spring rate or softer front rate. This will help your turn in. The rear swaybar will help during the heavier cornering when there is more lean and sideways force for the swaybar to counter. However, on the inital turn in, there's little sideways force. Other factors have a greater effect, things like shock rates, toe, and such, things that affect handling before the suspension gets loaded. It's all quite complex as many things add together at different times to produce an end result. Try thinking of how weight moves around your car as you take a corner. What factors come into play at which point through the corner. You should find your tuning answers there.

If price is a concern, stay with the cheap/free tuning aspects like tire pressure or simple alignment adjustments. Otherwise, it's all driving technique.

I think everything's been covered there. Brake hard before the turn, bleed off speed through trail braking into the corner. If right, the brakes reduce to zero by apex and throttle starts. This may vary some buy car setup of course, to accomodate for understeer/oversteer at various points. Throttle goes on lightly and progresses to full and you straighten out. Work the traction circle. That's all you can do. If you find the rear having too much grip and you can continuously hold the front at its limit, a setup change is needed. Technique won't get around this.