“The Hard Call” by Formula D Judge Ken Takahashi

[AlexPfeiffer]

Originally Posted by D1 DRIFTER

... ok alex so do you agree on the call that was made... i mean not trying to argue but the lower hp cars seem to do fine with the lines they run they come in faster and still manage to stay right on the A$$ of a higher hp and when theres an opening to pass wouldnt you take it considering if you pass while drifting that would help with you points wise.. or am i mistaken? i just want to know if you agree with the judges

I dont try to pass. There is a difference. If the person infront of me messes up to the point that he leaves the apex wide open, yes, I will probably pass. If you look at this whole season and last, that hasnt happened yet.
I feel that you are supposed to follow and better your opponets line, speed, and angle inorder to win. Not dash to the inside line and attempt to pass every run.

I think I made a point at sear point to show that just because I was passed twice, doesnt mean that they where on a "faster" line. They just stole my line. If you watch the replays, they were in my way more then they were faster then me. They both passed on the inside line and started their drifts much laiter (with an e-brake) which means they are *Censored**Censored**Censored*!!! That was dirty drifting.

I can see that everyone wants to win, but to have to cheat inorder to do it doesnt make it much of a win, well it keeps your sponcors happy. In racing there are 2 types, cheaters and loosers. It seems drifting has gone the same way.

I do this for the fun and excitement of it. If I want to cheat, I can too. But I'd rather just enjoy being in the middle of the points standings and stay true to what I have learned, Good Clean Drifting. Not lait entry, inside line, e-brake, no momentum, *Censored**Censored**Censored* DRIFTING!!!!

[D1 DRIFTER]

so how can u better a Higher HP cars line. if you have to take a wider line in a lower HP car???

[AlexPfeiffer]

If you keep your momentum up, then you will still be right on him. Yes, you may have less tire smoke and you have to give up some of your angle in places, but you still have a good chance on winning. The judges do take into consideration that you are in a low hp car and you need to run that type of line.

You have to remember that when the cars are drifting, there isnt as much speed difference. A 200hp ae86 with 195's can have the same drifting speed as a 500hp viper with 295's, it just wont have as much tire smoke and the viper can get up to that speed quicker.

If the high hp car runs an inside line, stay with your outside line. The judges should know that the inside line is weak and unexciting. And most of the time you will still catch up a bit at the apex of the corner, which shows the judges that you had better line and speed.

[Hubert Young]

Finally had a chance to watch round 4 at Sears (yes, it's Sears Point, not Infineon or Sonoma!!). I was a little surprised by the reason the judge gave Rhys of why he lost to Alex. The main reason should have been that Rhys straightened the car a little and not getting his front wheel on the burm!

I totally second what Alex said about passing in drifting. I have witnessed some pretty lame tandem drifting in FD in the last few rounds: the lead car takes a shallow line too shallow. They call it the "protective line" but it's plain "chicken line" to me. Running a slightly shallow line to protect your line is good but going as far as just hugging the whole inside of a turn is no fun. I guess part of the reasons for the lead driver to do this was that most of the drivers in FD just want to pass and steal the line of the lead car. This is just like Alex said, "dirty drifting". It's 100 times more difficult to stay close to the car in front of you and mimic the moves of the lead car. That's skills. Passing is pretty easy in drifting if you want to do it. I suggest FD to ban passing UNLESS THE LEAD CAR CLEARLY MAKES A MISTAKE.

Anyhow, I always say this at the FD events after I see everybody's practices were so good, "I will hate to be a judge today!". Good work Ken and the other judges. Keep it up. Let's learn the game together and make it even better next year!

[zdss14]

"The three factory guys are sitting 1-2-3 in the points, but I'll also dare anyone to say that Rhys Millen hasn't been the single most consistant drifter this year. Every run of his is clean, precise, and practically without fault."

he's not good because he's factory, he's factory because HE'S good

[Octagon]

Hubert, I think that banning passing would be a huge mistake. While I do agree that a pass should not be an auto-win situation unless it was plain to see that it was done with superior drifting, to ban passing would eliminate that "deathblow knockout" that the fans love, just as Ken said.

What I'd still like to see is something I can go down to Attica Raceway Park every Friday night and witness, but have never seen someone in drifting pull off - a full sideways pass on the OUTSIDE.

[Hubert Young]

Originally Posted by Octagon

Hubert, I think that banning passing would be a huge mistake. While I do agree that a pass should not be an auto-win situation unless it was plain to see that it was done with superior drifting, to ban passing would eliminate that "deathblow knockout" that the fans love, just as Ken said.

What I'd still like to see is something I can go down to Attica Raceway Park every Friday night and witness, but have never seen someone in drifting pull off - a full sideways pass on the OUTSIDE.

Agree... Actually, it's not that fun to have rules on everything, especially for drifting, which is an art form. But what I said was that pass should ONLY BE ALLOWED WHEN the lead car CLEARLY made a mistake and it's pretty easy to tell. Anyhow, with or without the rule imposed, I guess it's more on the drivers to respect the game and each other.

[Suede Mr. Flash]

I've been harping on this since the beginning of season 1 of FD and I'm glad it's finally being discussed in the open. IMHO, the "passing obsession" some of the drivers exhibit, an obsession that is probably (understandably) driven by the loud cheers of uninformed and misguided fans, is destroying the Zen of drifting.

I have always admired Pfeiffer's style as being "pure" in form and true to the roots of "the battle" in which skill and aggression is perfectly balanced with style and respect for your opponent. When well executed, two drivers with this mentality, regardless of hardware, will exhibit the most amazing and exciting battles. This is drifting at its finest.

I'm not saying Alex is perfect, or the best drifter or anything other than he "gets it". I'm pretty sure Alex and MANY other drivers out there "get it" too and probably want to strive to attain this "traditional style". But in FD, they have not been rewarded enough for exhibiting this drifting style and instead, are rewarded more for other aspects of tandem battles, like passing, that probably should be less consequential in scoring.

This is not meant to point fingers. I think just about everyone who loves the sport can agree that the FD guys have done a great job of launching and growing their series. Nobody expects perfection right away. I also suspect that since the overall skills of the drivers in FD are clearly improving at a rapid pace, it's difficult (probably impossible) to establish firm and fair judging standards that take the rapid development of the driver pool into account. Never mind all the new venues and the horsepower disparities with all the Detroit iron out there now! I don't envy anyone there that has to make these tough calls.

At the end of the day though, who really knows the underlying reasons that have created the current judging system and the expectations of the judging panel by all of the interested parties? I mean, do the screaming crowds, no matter how misinformed, cause the judges to sway their standards now and then to keep the fans amped up? Or, like I suggested above, maybe the screaming fans who make so much noise when there is a pass have influenced a lot of the drivers to try to put on a good show for them by exploiting those opportunities more than they might otherwise, which has, in turn, made it more acceptable with the judges. Or, perhaps G4 has influenced the situation in the name of "good television". Maybe it's a combination of all these things (and maybe others). Or, maybe none at all. I'm only offering speculation and conjecture here, not insinuation or evidence. My comments are simply for the sake of illustration and discussion.

Every series has to start somewhere. FD has and it's well underway with a strong following and a bright future. Like all organizations, it will need constant adjustments, refinements and polishing up here and there. Ken has started the ball rolling here on the judging issue and he makes a lot of great points and offers some valuable insight into the process. With some constructive commentary here, he and the other judges may take some of this and work it into the process they develop for future events and seasons. So props to Ken, Alex, Jerrod, Hubert and everyone involved for coming on here and posting your views of the situation. I hope some of the posts here help the whole FD team in continuing to refine the series to make it bigger and better every year while creating an environment that produces the best drifters in the world. That would definitely be a win-win for everyone!

Cheers!

[Mike Peters]

ok my quick $1.05 of freedom of speech



passing

cool, if you can pass the guy while holding a drift i say you win


line in tandem

"dont take a wide line and you wont get passed"

or

"dont pass the guy for takgin a wide line"

i NEVER heard anyone complain when this happened at wall speedway when sam was passed by nishida. all the drivers that were there remember judges said either go in or out. and with the rules of tandem mimick the guy in front of you. 1st round sam goes wide on the inside 8 (as he had been most the day) nishida passes. nobody complains.

also during the event, a certain pilot who will remain un named of the milano auto s13 decides to make a pass BEFORE THE TRACK. everyone agrees that is g-a-y and we move on to the next round.


fast forward to sonoma

EVERYONE is tryign to pass on the "entry" and its bad.... jr passes sam on the entry, no big deal, but rhys passes alex, messes up a little and almost hits the birm, and the judges make the call saying rhys is penalized for hitting the birm. now before i continue let me say this, all sports have their referees/judges whatever. they are put in that place to make calls that will be looked at as a decision. sometimes bad calls are made, thats part of the game. football/basketball refs make calls sometimes you dont like, umpires in baseball, it happens, nobody is perfect and we are all human. the call is made and alex advances. rhys doesnt like the call and voices his opinion, i can understand that. but the judges decision is final and i can understand that too. it happened, its over with, and quite frankly why are we still talking about it?

the thing i will question is this. everyone wants to jump on rhys/sam all the time, but nobody wants to say "hey why did nishida pass sam when he was suppost to follow sam's line?" "hey why did jr pass on entry?"

honestly, i dont care about either those situations, i jsut dont understand why 1/2 the posts on thist hread are directed at rhys/sam, but no mention of other people when they did the same thing. double standard?


also just to be clear, i really dont care about any of the passing stuff, im "slow" and like to eat chicken sandwiches but i just wanted to know why always bash rhys / sam for stuff that everyone does, they just do it more. this is racing guys, we've all done it out there, you get agressive and you go for it. but it seems like everytime rhys/sam do it theres a thread like this, and i just dont understand the double standard.

i also have a problem being extremely redundant in my posts when im tryign to get a point across. but i love everybody and ill see you guys at irwindale

[Mike Peters]

oh yeah, also my .02 on passing.

i say pass=kill, AS LONG AS YOU HOLD A GOOD DRIFT.

none of this straightening out crap, and none of this clutch kick after you lose the drift and try to pass the guy after the clipping point while you grip thru it accellerating, people have tried it and it really looks totally completely rainbowriffic.

if you can pass while holding a good drift go for it. the judges have told eveyrone to run a protective line during tandem so DO IT. were all "professionals" so lets act like it, if the judges tell us to do something lets do our duty and follow thier directions, have fun and put on a show.

but if you try to pass and grip to pass, you get an automatic advantage, if your going for a pass and straighten out, obviously have respect for your opponent, hit the pedal to your left (thats the middle pedal for you non el camino drifters) stay out of their way and resume the drift behind them.

again i love everyone, and look forward to having a funtastic weekend at irwindale and the banquet and stuff with all you guys and girls.

[tululu]

sounds great that Peters got everything figured out.
it's hard to believe that you 'love everyone' especially
when you call your fellow competitor g-a-y.
and if you see the whole pic of this thread, nobody is
really trying to single out or bash rhys/sam. i really do
think they are both awesome drifters. and i don't think
nobody has anything against them.
when you say, "i say pass=kill, AS LONG AS YOU HOLD A
GOOD DRIFT" it's not that simple. is it a "GOOD DRIFT"
even you drift the tightest line possible?
if we all just aimed to 'follow' the person in front as close
as possible and not necessarily aim for 'passing', that
should be good enough.

hiro

[Mike Peters]

Originally Posted by tululu

sounds great that Peters got everything figured out.
it's hard to believe that you 'love everyone' especially
when you call your fellow competitor g-a-y.
and if you see the whole pic of this thread, nobody is
really trying to single out or bash rhys/sam. i really do
think they are both awesome drifters. and i don't think
nobody has anything against them.
when you say, "i say pass=kill, AS LONG AS YOU HOLD A
GOOD DRIFT" it's not that simple. is it a "GOOD DRIFT"
even you drift the tightest line possible?
if we all just aimed to 'follow' the person in front as close
as possible and not necessarily aim for 'passing', that
should be good enough.

hiro

i wasnt calling anyone *Censored**Censored**Censored*, just their actions at wall as far as a pass in which they almost ran into and nearly forced their opponent into the wall in a totally uncalled for fashion.

and by the good drift comment that was in conjunction with the judges last couple of instructions they gave us for tandem as far as ''holding a protective line'' during tandem and not allowing the room to let their opponent pass. if your opponent goes wide while leading in the corner and you have room to pass while holding a drift and not interfering with your opponent and you can pull it off i dont see a problem with that at all, i think that should be an automatic kill.

[tululu]

i agree. but the key point is just as you said,
you can pass as long as you're "not interfering
with your opponent (line)". this is the same with
what Alex and Hubert are also saying.
but it is very hard to pass without being in your
opponent's way or stealing your opponent's line,
unless the lead car makes a mistake and goes far
out beyond the 'proper line'.
it will be a natural tendency for the lead car line
to be tighter and tighter, if s/he has to constantly
pressure themselves to block the following car.
i think passing should almost be an accident as a
result of the lead car making a big mistake.

hiro

[AlexPfeiffer]

Mike, the reason why no one questioned it when sam got passed at wall was because he got passed on the apex of the corner. He was clearly wide at the apex. Also there where a few corners before that main apex.

The reason why milano didnt get the win at wall even though he made the pass was because he clearly cut accross the track on the entry to pass and force his opponet off line.

I feel at tracks line chicago, texas, sonoma.... any track that you have a wide entry but clearly only one main apex, its unsportsmanlike and G_A_Y to only run the inside line. That is not the proper drifting line.

And no Mike, this isnt racing sideways. You want to do that, stay in texas and run a dirt oval. Im sure your cars will fit right in.

[my 1 88 u]

Isn't the consiquence of running a shallow line to pass that if the leading driver is carrying enough speed and the correct line they will trap them at the apex causeing them to loose drift or spin? like what happened to papadikis when he was chasing ken in chicago.

[AlexPfeiffer]

I think your looking at it backwards, my 1 88 u,

Ken ran the inside line and steph tried to run the same line but lost his momentum which caused him to loose his drift.

A high torque car can use the power to keep the rear wheels spinning even though it has less speed. Steph's car does not have as much torque as ken which is why he couldnt run that same line.

[Mike Peters]

Originally Posted by AlexPfeiffer

Mike, the reason why no one questioned it when sam got passed at wall was because he got passed on the apex of the corner. He was clearly wide at the apex. Also there where a few corners before that main apex.

i was mainly referring to all the comments made by the kids on here holding the double standard to rhys/sam and any passes they make, but if one of them gets passed in the same fashion it's no big deal whatsoever. i call it a double standard, but a lot of poeple probably just see it as karma/payback/whatever. but thats where that part of it was directed in my post

The reason why milano didnt get the win at wall even though he made the pass was because he clearly cut accross the track on the entry to pass and force his opponet off line.

i know why he didnt get the win, i was just pointing out the perfectly executed example of how NOT to pass, and what should definately not be allowed/tollerated, and it hasnt.

I feel at tracks line chicago, texas, sonoma.... any track that you have a wide entry but clearly only one main apex, its unsportsmanlike and G_A_Y to only run the inside line. That is not the proper drifting line.

i agree somewhat, i mainly was talkign about huberts '' just say no to passing '' post, and what i see as a compromise the judges made as far as agressive driving and trygin to combat it, as you guys know, at chicago the judges clearly stated in the drivers meeting "hey guys, if you cant pass clean then dont do it, and if your leading dont leave the door wide open, run a protective line thats more in than you would in qualifying" i thought this was an awesome solution, and made some extreeeeemely good action during tandem to watch. your never going to eliminate some of the more agressive drivers as everyone has thier agressive days, so just tell everyone to expect it and protect their line. worked great at chicago, and i think they shoudl stick with it. we all know good and well that if everyone starts riding the wall people are gonan come in and occasionally just go for the pass, it IS there and the door IS wide open, why not go for it, honeslty id have a hard time not trygin to stick my nose/door/haybails down there.

And no Mike, this isnt racing sideways. You want to do that, stay in texas and run a dirt oval. Im sure your cars will fit right in.

[bj@dcx]

This begs the question- Should American Style Drifting mimic Japanese Style Drifting? Should Drifting Style here in the U.S. be more "Americanized" or follow the sport's roots?

[madmax13]

Honestly i think the distinction drawn between "American" and "Japanese" drifting is garbage. Like baseball is baseball wherever you go, drifting is the same wherever it is practiced.

[CrazyHawaiian]

There is a difference weather we like it or not. In Japan the style derived from mountain drifting where you would rarely be passing anyone when you battle. Mainly because the road is so narrow and you could get really screwed up if you made a mistake and went off course. And if someone in front of you did make a big enough mistake to allow you to pass, you'd probably stop and see if they're OK. I think it was accepted that you can still win a battle from the rear spot by putting on pressure and riding the rear bumper. Here in America we got a bunch of drivers with previous professional racing experience. They enter these events at huge open areas of space where most turns are high gear sweepers and going off course isn't nearly as bad. Because of some peoples backgrounds, and the style of the events, some people seem to think you should go for a pass whenever possible. I dont think they are intending to do harm, its just the type of aggressiveness born out of competitive racing. The guys that are only into drifting and came from the streets are also aggressive, but they are more reserved because they dont feel the need to go for a pass all the time. I think it all has to do with where you've done all your drifting practice and the type of style you make for yourself. You have to admit always practicing on mountain roads would help you build a different style than the open area high speed sweepers types of practice sessions.

[hatebbobbarker]

Originally Posted by CrazyHawaiian

There is a difference weather we like it or not. In Japan the style derived from mountain drifting where you would rarely be passing anyone when you battle. Mainly because the road is so narrow and you could get really screwed up if you made a mistake and went off course. And if someone in front of you did make a big enough mistake to allow you to pass, you'd probably stop and see if they're OK. I think it was accepted that you can still win a battle from the rear spot by putting on pressure and riding the rear bumper. Here in America we got a bunch of drivers with previous professional racing experience. They enter these events at huge open areas of space where most turns are high gear sweepers and going off course isn't nearly as bad. Because of some peoples backgrounds, and the style of the events, some people seem to think you should go for a pass whenever possible. I dont think they are intending to do harm, its just the type of aggressiveness born out of competitive racing. The guys that are only into drifting and came from the streets are also aggressive, but they are more reserved because they dont feel the need to go for a pass all the time. I think it all has to do with where you've done all your drifting practice and the type of style you make for yourself. You have to admit always practicing on mountain roads would help you build a different style than the open area high speed sweepers types of practice sessions.

I know your talking to mad max, but you made me think of something.
still doesnt give rhys an excuse, since theres no passing in rally.

[AlexPfeiffer]

This is exactly what i'm talking about, the inside line (passing line) and the drift line, and what will be happening soon if the judges dont do something about it.

http://s6.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2...DV1KEOWMUZ4H4YF

Someone stated that tandem means "tandem" not "versus". That sums it up pretty well.

[my 1 88 u]

Originally Posted by AlexPfeiffer

This is exactly what i'm talking about, the inside line (passing line) and the drift line, and what will be happening soon if the judges dont do something about it.

http://s6.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=2...DV1KEOWMUZ4H4YF

Someone stated that tandem means "tandem" not "versus". That sums it up pretty well.

is that the orido crash video?

[AlexPfeiffer]

yup
(this thing makes you type in ten words so im just typing in words other then just going yup, yup, yup ten times.)

[my 1 88 u]

but he was given the win