“The Hard Call” by Formula D Judge Ken Takahashi

Mike Peters · 08-22-2005, 08:01 PM

IIRC there is a rule stating something to the effect of

' if the follow car makes contact with the lead car causing a crash/spin the follow car is disqualified and the lead car automatically wins '

at least in FD i know there is a rule like that to some effect

AlexPfeiffer · 08-22-2005, 08:03 PM

Yeah, but it also means both cars are *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored*ed up.

hatebbobbarker · 08-22-2005, 08:10 PM

link didnt work

Octagon · 08-22-2005, 10:17 PM

Nobody is suggesting that drift cars start welding on nerf bars and such like dirt late models. We're not asking for that and it's rarely the case - that I've seen - that a scenario like that happens when a pass is attempted. Personally speaking, I think that some of tandem's most exciting moments are when the trailing car is poking its nose in mid-drift to look for that opening for a pass.

You're right, Alex, that this isn't dirt track racing. This is drifting, but it's still motorsport, it's still competition, and the quickest (and hardest) way to win is still getting in front of the other guy. Drifting in this country won't become the weekly feature at Shady Bowl Raceway (which is an actual track here in Ohio) just because the pass is heralded as a win. Let's just better police what constitutes a good pass.

One more point on the dirt track v drift statement: It would be neat to see a drift car with a cantilever rear suspension so that it lifts the inside front wheel during the drift to carry the weight transfer during the slide. If you've ever seen a dirt track late model doing its corner wheelie, you know what I mean.

CrazyHawaiian · 08-23-2005, 01:17 AM

Its hard for me to compare drifting to other motorsports because drifting is not racing. You dont need to be in front to win and you dont have to have the fastest lap time to win. You have to have the best style to win. I think there is a point where tandem battles can become too aggressive, and I consider that bad style. The guy in front should not have to modify his line because of the guy in the rear. If the guy in the rear is so much better, to the point where he could pass, he should just show it by continuing to put pressure on the front car. When the tables are turned and he is leading then he should be able to pull away and get the win. Like alot of people, I also think tandem is the most exciting when the following car puts his front bumper right up next to the leading car applying pressure. But I think where some of us have differences in opinion is where it goes from there. To me, just putting that pressure on the leading car is all I need to see. I dont need to see a pass to determine a winner. I give respect to a driver that is able to consistently apply pressure at a close range without causing contact. Other drivers will also respect that driver because they will build confidence to know that driver has enough control to keep the situation from getting dangereous. Compare that to a driver that will apply pressure to go for a pass and possibly make a reckless move. How do you think that makes other drivers feel?

Hubert Young · 08-23-2005, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tululu

i think passing should almost be an accident as a
result of the lead car making a big mistake.

Agree... let me say this again: I think matching the drift of the opponent in
front of you involves more car control skills than just going for the pass and push your opponent out of the way or stealing his line. The follow car has to match the drift angle, speed and line of the lead car and that's what makes it tough. So yes, I maintain that passing should only be allowed when the lead car CLEARLY MAKES A MISTAKE. This is not a race.

Octagon · 08-23-2005, 02:12 PM

Crazy Hawaiian, you charge that drifting becomes too aggressive when drivers push for the pass and therefore loses some of its "spirit".

Well, here's the way I - as a competitor - see a chance to pass.

I'm starting out trailing in the first run. I can come out of this run with four outcomes.

Outcome 1: Advantage Opponent - I either dropped behind because I wasn't as fast as the opponent, or I received fewer points because I didn't have enough angle/smoke or chose a loose line.

Outcome 2: Advantage Even - I matched my opponent move for move. I didn't gain ground, but I didn't lose it either. I wasn't better, but I wasn't worse.

Outcome 3: Advantage Me - I was poking my nose in on my opponent, running faster or more sideways on a better line. I impressed the judges with superior driving.

But here's the kicker, all of this can be undone in the second run. With outcome 1 or 2, I have to run away from the opponent and push my car even harder than I did in the first run to make up for the lack of results in the first run. If I make one mistake or my opponent is able to step it up in the second run, I'm hosed.

With Outcome 3, I have a little more breathing room, but I still have to keep ahead of my opponent, put space between me and him, and throw-up an angle he can't match. If I can't do any of those, the run goes to a one more time, and I have another shot at losing the round PLUS I risk breakage on my car because of added time running.

Now, here's Outcome #4

Outcome #4: Win by Passing - I'm faster on my run while matching/bettering my opponent's angle. I find a better line than him and get around him at or after the first clipping point.

What happens now is I get to conserve my equipment and run an easy, cut-and-paste line on the second run that just barely keeps me in front. The pressure is off, the win is practically mine, and I can concentrate on how to change the setup/approach the track in the next round, making my chances for an overall victory that much better.

And with a decent paycheck, national (and international exposure) for my sponsors, and that many more points towards a championship all lying after that win, I'm going to go for that win right away.

It's professional motorsport guys. This is what happens in professional motorsport - you aim to win, and hang on tenaciously to whatever chance of winning you have like a wolf whose jaws are clamped on the throat of an elk.

TIREKILLER · 08-23-2005, 04:02 PM

A pass should have no relavence! Its not hard to pass a slower/less powerful car, even in a drift. The challenge of being in the back during a tandem run is FOLLOWING. Its much harder to adapt your (fast) style to a slower competitor YOU have to change your technique and prove that you can drift in any situation. Not that you can blast past your competitor and make a run just like you would in a solo run. If your leading you run YOUR line! The same one you have been running all day, the one that got you to the tandem rounds in the first place. That is to say that you should also be running balls out all day no matter what anyway!

The only reason that the trailing car should cross the end of the judged area first is if the lead car makes a horible mistake like a spin or some other off track event. Which would automaticaly give the advantage to the trailing car.

Drift Brick · 08-23-2005, 05:13 PM

whay are we changing what has been one of the founding rules of competitive drifting from day1? "Pass=win" is a part of the very foundation fo drifting as a sport. If passing and aggressiveness isnt encouraged, then I might as well be watching synchronized swimming (as so many older guys fomr the SCCA love to remind us).

I love drifting, but part of my love for the sport comes from my love of touring car racing, rally, etc.

with passing emliminated as a competitive option, or (even worse) becoming a formality, I think we'd see tandem become boring. the point is to pressure the other guy. to get him to lose his line and his lunch- to be the better, harder, faster, more aggressive driver. I know finishing first isnt the objective here, but alot of drifting's appeal comes from the high speed, hardcore nature of it. then again, I am more of a speed first, then angle kind of guy.

so I see two distinct approaches to judging tandem here.

1. Leader drives the best, fastest, smoothest drift line he/she can, while maintaining angle and smoke. follower mimics this line to the best of his ability, trying to do the same thing better. passes occur after mistakes like spins or understeers, or when the leader runs WAY wide. (which would result in a "0" score for them anyway, except in the case of running super wide.)

2. Leader drives the best, fastest, smoothest drift line he/she can, while maintaining angle and smoke, while protecting against a pass and trying to make the follower break his line or stop drifting. Folower tries to be faster, have more angle, and get as close to the leader as possible. if the opportunity presents itself for a pass, he does. (If he hits the other car enough to make either driver correct, its a 0 score for him.)

option2 reminds me more of D1, where the objective is to get inside the leader and steal his line or pass. Formula D is more like the first option... and it shouldnt be, in my opinion.

I know that the US is different from Japan, the tracks are different, the cars are different, the drivers are different. but why should the rules be? if it comes up in practice that something like what happened at wall w/ the milano S13 could happen again and give some car an unfair advantage, THATS WHAT THE JUDGES ARE FOR!!!!!!!!!! They should see it coming because they have superior motorsport experience, should have driven (or at least ridden

the course, and they should let the drivers know what is and isnt acceptable there. Keiichi does it all the time. like at Irwindale- " hitting the wall is OK, as long as you dont correct." Or ebisu- "if the right front tire passes the middle of the kerbing, youre considered off-course and out of control."

this is all doable. just get drivers to judge. (there, I said it.)

and yes, i know Tarzan is a judge and who he is and how he drives and what hes done, etc. I was at D1 when the viper came out. Ive seen him run time attack, and Ive seen a lot of option videos with him. im aware that he is, in fact, a fantastic driver. also, I know about the other japanese guy, whos name I cant recall. but he qualified for D1, so he probably doesnt suck too much .

CrazyHawaiian · 08-24-2005, 12:20 AM

Where did this idea that passing = win come from? I think it is the result of people interpreting tandem battling wrong. If you guys think any series or event in the USA played any part in founding this sport, I'm sorry to say, but you are flat out wrong. This sport has been going on in Japan for over a decade before it became popular in the USA. If anyone had any say in the foundations of drifting, its the guys from Japan. To really find the "answer" here I think you guys need to analyze how competitions are done in Japan, and then compare it to how it has been going on in the USA. And I dont mean just watch some videos and interpret it as you see fit, I mean actually figgure out whats going on, maybe even talk to some people involved. In Japan you might see a pass here or there, but it only happens when the lead car makes a big mistake and spins out or goes off course. While it may appear the following car is going for a pass all the time, that is not whats going on. The following car is trying to stay as close to the lead car as possible at all times without making contact. He's showing how much control he has by remaining inches apart through multiple turns at speed. That is what makes tandem drifting battles exciting. Having two cars sliding sideways at high speeds only inches apart. Passing has nothing to do with it.

I do think drifting in the USA would become too aggressive if passing became an acceptable way of winning. I think we would end up with a bunch of people crashing into eachother, and thats not drifting to me. Car control would become secondary and focus would be put on car placement. Its definately not where I want to see the sport go. Drifting is not a race, its an exhibition of car control and I want to see it stay that way.

Octagon · 08-29-2005, 06:17 PM

Plenty of other drivers have lost this year because of mechanical difficulties (Forsberg included) so Rhys can live with a runner-up finish that still gave him the Championship.

Seriously, mechanical failure is as much a part of motorsports as mechanical superiority. Run big or go home.

Nismo · 10-07-2005, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlexPfeiffer

I dont try to pass. I can see that everyone wants to win, but to have to cheat inorder to do it doesnt make it much of a win, well it keeps your sponcors happy. In racing there are 2 types, cheaters and loosers. It seems drifting has gone the same way.

I do this for the fun and excitement of it. If I want to cheat, I can too. But I'd rather just enjoy being in the middle of the points standings and stay true to what I have learned, Good Clean Drifting. Not lait entry, inside line, e-brake, no momentum, *Censored**Censored**Censored* DRIFTING!!!!

you even thought that rhys should have won thats why you said no comment. ha thats why you crahsed...

CrazyHawaiian · 10-08-2005, 04:19 AM

In the 05 FD Finals at Irwindale I think Gushi got robbed. I dont think any "hard calls" were made there, only the wrong calls. Re-gripping should be punished. And seeing how the points standings for the season came out so close with Gushi and Sam, left a sour taste in my mouth. I dont know much about the points system but I think that battle determined who would have been 2nd or 3rd for the season. Was a shame somrt sort of politics seemed to take place.

Nismo · 10-12-2005, 08:42 AM

In the beggining of the season the judges said that the way they judge is on palm pilots, then they input the score idividually then add them up. But toward the end of the season I never saw them with any palm pilots and it seemed like the just tossed a coin in the air and decided on that.

Walther · 10-12-2005, 12:14 PM

I just hope for the sake of the sport that all the BIG sponsors dont just back out after they all get their wins that could be detremental to the drifting community. I say support your local drift clinics there is nothing anyone can do in regards of what Formula D does with their series, I think the pro drivers need to get together and create a union...not to b*tch and complain about who should of won what or take anything away from anyone (after all the season is over and we all need to move on), but so that they can give input on course lay out, and perhaps re-evaluate the way points are scored, and this of course has to be very well organized and there must be a lot of communication and all points be brought up before any event takes place so that there is no controversy during an event no matter how unfair a judges decision may seem to others. Yes I agree with most of you and disagree with a lot of you but that does not matter because in the end as a whole it seems that the community just wants drifting to grow as a whole. In my opinion I really think that Formula D needs to make sure that ALL the judges must have had an extensive profesional racing background and has some drifting background as well. I might be wrong in a lot of things but this is just my opinion and I hope it might inspire some of you with ideas to help this motorsport grow!

Octagon · 10-12-2005, 03:34 PM

Reference Talladega's history to see how well a driver's union works, bucko. It's been tried before, and it was shot down in a heartbeat.

swifty949 · 10-12-2005, 04:21 PM

in a perfect world, a union would sure sound nice...lets face it. If drivers boycott, there will be 100 others in line wanting to take thier place. A union needs funding to operate...a lot of the drivers dont have money, intrest in politics, nor the time for a union...

hatebbobbarker · 10-12-2005, 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swifty949

in a perfect world, a union would sure sound nice...lets face it. If drivers boycott, there will be 100 others in line wanting to take thier place. A union needs funding to operate...a lot of the drivers dont have money, intrest in politics, nor the time for a union...

in a perfect world thered be no need for a union anyways

Octagon · 10-12-2005, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swifty949

in a perfect world, a union would sure sound nice...lets face it. If drivers boycott, there will be 100 others in line wanting to take thier place. A union needs funding to operate...a lot of the drivers dont have money, intrest in politics, nor the time for a union...

That's exactly what happened at Talladega in 1969.

Richard Petty, David Pearson, Bobby & Donnie Allison, and the rest of NASCAR's stars in 1969 were in the beginning stages of putting together a driver's union to create a safer, better paying, more regularly paying racing circuit with benefits and security for drivers who were in it for the long haul with NASCAR.

When qualifying speeds - thanks to the hyperaerodynamic Charger Daytona and Torino Talladega - at Talladega in 1969 were cracking 200mph the infant "driver's union" said to Bill France Sr. "We won't race because this is ridiculously unsafe, and because we're the stars of the sport and we won't be on track, you'll lose money because the fans won't come."

Well, Big Bill France looked at the situation, then called up every other driver that wasn't in the boycott, including drivers and teams from NASCAR's modified and latemodel circuits as opposed to just Grand National, and put on the Talladega race without the stars, and still packed the stands because of the pure draw of the racing, and the jazz factor of 200mph stock cars in 1969.

The stars came back to Daytona and Talladega driving 200mph stock cars in 1970 without a fuss, and the driver's union was never spoken of again.

As the famous saying goes "We were eye to eye, and I think the other guy just blinked."

Walther · 10-13-2005, 08:20 AM

when I mentioned a union when I was writting this it had never crossed my mind to "boycott" anything but I guess if your a cry baby that cannot communicate it is very likely that that is what is gonna happen, so I guess it might very well be a bad idea? My intentions when I said that was just to start establishing a line of communication so that the drivers can voice their opinion as a whole and perhaps the series they are racing on can better understand what the driver's thinking and opinion's on matters such as track lay out or even just concerns and ideas that can help in future events. I mean maybe its me and im just picky but if I was a driver at the level they are trying to compete at then why are so many things handled unprofesionally at times? Now dont get me wrong and please correct me if I am mistaken but I think it is unfair for track lay outs to be changed (even if it is a slight change) before and after practice or even qualifying rounds, and also I belive that unseeded drivers should get more track time. I know things are starting to change and dont get me wrong Formula D has done a lot and im sure it is hard work to be so organized but if you are going to be considered a pro then the series you are racing should handle themselfs as profesionals and minimise at the very least little situations like this. I mean I myself am a nobody but I still hear the same complaints from different drivers and teams and it just baffles me as to why small problems cannot be addressed and took care of in a timely manner, so that is why it crossed my mind that perhaps the drivers need to speak up as a whole. Pluss who knows I am probably completly wrong but I was thinking if the drivers spoke up then perhaps it might be easier for Formula D to work together alongside them to better this fast growing motorsport instead of looking at the internet forums. If anyone feels like I am taking a shot at them then you are wrong, my intentions are not to put anyone down but merely to just give my 2 cents just like the rest of you and then perhaps maybe I myself can better understand the situation. I know that having a driver's union is not as simple as it sounds but what else can they do so that all those privateers and small shops that want to stay commited and dedicated to driving F.D. can be heard and taken seriously? This is not a retorical question by the way im serious what else can they do?

Walther · 10-13-2005, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by motdyn_s14

Agree... let me say this again: I think matching the drift of the opponent in
front of you involves more car control skills than just going for the pass and push your opponent out of the way or stealing his line. The follow car has to match the drift angle, speed and line of the lead car and that's what makes it tough. So yes, I maintain that passing should only be allowed when the lead car CLEARLY MAKES A MISTAKE. This is not a race.

YES! people please listen to the real drivers and not the internet drifters!

Octagon · 10-13-2005, 09:39 PM

#1 - Formula Drift is two seasons old: That they're able to plan Season 3 without the Sword of Damocles hanging around is a small miracle. It takes time to grow an organization, and two years is not enough time especially when you're surrounded by 50+ year old organizations.

#2 - The Series Comes First: I hate to break it to the drivers, the teams, the builders, and the sponsors, (especially because at one point or another I've been all four), but the SANCTIONING BODY is in control and the SANCTIOING BODY is the most important thing. Without Formula Drift, you stay at home waiting for D1 to come over again. It's Formula Drift's primary obligation to see to it that competitors have fair competitions, have a safe place to compete, and get paid for competing. All else is ENTIRELY THE TEAMS' RESPONSIBILITY.

#3 - Teams Are Sink or Swim: This is motorsports, kiddos, and highly competitive motorsports at that. The level of car prep, level of driver skill, and level of tuning is increasing at an exponential rate, and as such costs are escalating too. If you can't compete under the same rules as everyone else, it's not the sanctioning body's responsibility to help you compete, it's your responsibility to FOLLOW THE RULES. Like 'em or lump 'em, the France family got NASCAR to be bigger than stick & ball sports by exerting dictatorial control over the teams, the rules, and race procedure. You turn the series over to some sort of council of teams and drivers and you will end up in the same self-destructive boat as Trans-Am and/or CART.

I've been around motorsport my whole life, as a driver, a builder, as crew, as a journalist, and even in the political end. Formula Drift has issues, but they need to exert more control over the goings on at their events, more authority, and LESS listening to suggestions of competitors and other constituents.

CrazyHawaiian · 10-14-2005, 06:46 AM

I think that type of approach will work for racing, but I dont think it will work out too well with drifting unless the judging is really good. Racing is clean cut, time based, no questions asked. But if there is a feeling that the judging at a drifting series is not very good, its gonna drive people away. I dont think anyone is trying to say FD itself has a problem, but there are just some major judging related things that dont seem to make sense compared to what you see in Japan events. Stuff like re-gripping and going for a pass when there is no room, its obvious stuff that should be punished. Very different from comparing angles or lines where there would be a bigger leeway for the judge to make a call they see fit and you have to accept it. Its confusing to see some obviously wrong things being selectively overlooked by the judges. In order for the sport to grow the series should want new and upcomming talent working hard to enter the events. This will be hard to do if the new and upcomming drivers have doubts about the judging. I think FD should listen to the current drivers. Not so much on the specifics of who what when where, but just the general idea that maybe something is wrong and needs to be looked at.

Walther · 10-14-2005, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Octagon

#1 - Formula Drift is two seasons old: That they're able to plan Season 3 without the Sword of Damocles hanging around is a small miracle. It takes time to grow an organization, and two years is not enough time especially when you're surrounded by 50+ year old organizations.

#2 - The Series Comes First: I hate to break it to the drivers, the teams, the builders, and the sponsors, (especially because at one point or another I've been all four), but the SANCTIONING BODY is in control and the SANCTIOING BODY is the most important thing. Without Formula Drift, you stay at home waiting for D1 to come over again. It's Formula Drift's primary obligation to see to it that competitors have fair competitions, have a safe place to compete, and get paid for competing. All else is ENTIRELY THE TEAMS' RESPONSIBILITY.

#3 - Teams Are Sink or Swim: This is motorsports, kiddos, and highly competitive motorsports at that. The level of car prep, level of driver skill, and level of tuning is increasing at an exponential rate, and as such costs are escalating too. If you can't compete under the same rules as everyone else, it's not the sanctioning body's responsibility to help you compete, it's your responsibility to FOLLOW THE RULES. Like 'em or lump 'em, the France family got NASCAR to be bigger than stick & ball sports by exerting dictatorial control over the teams, the rules, and race procedure. You turn the series over to some sort of council of teams and drivers and you will end up in the same self-destructive boat as Trans-Am and/or CART.

I've been around motorsport my whole life, as a driver, a builder, as crew, as a journalist, and even in the political end. Formula Drift has issues, but they need to exert more control over the goings on at their events, more authority, and LESS listening to suggestions of competitors and other constituents.

ok I understand what you are saying but if that is the case why even go on Drifting.com and open up a can of worms knowing that 90% of the people that are members are just strong opinionated forum junkies with no such car background as yourself...

Walther · 10-14-2005, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CrazyHawaiian

I think that type of approach will work for racing, but I dont think it will work out too well with drifting unless the judging is really good. Racing is clean cut, time based, no questions asked. But if there is a feeling that the judging at a drifting series is not very good, its gonna drive people away. I dont think anyone is trying to say FD itself has a problem, but there are just some major judging related things that dont seem to make sense compared to what you see in Japan events. Stuff like re-gripping and going for a pass when there is no room, its obvious stuff that should be punished. Very different from comparing angles or lines where there would be a bigger leeway for the judge to make a call they see fit and you have to accept it. Its confusing to see some obviously wrong things being selectively overlooked by the judges. In order for the sport to grow the series should want new and upcomming talent working hard to enter the events. This will be hard to do if the new and upcomming drivers have doubts about the judging. I think FD should listen to the current drivers. Not so much on the specifics of who what when where, but just the general idea that maybe something is wrong and needs to be looked at.

yes, I agree.

08-22-2005, 08:03 PM	#52
AlexPfeiffer Driver Join Date: May 2004 Posts: 765	Yeah, but it also means both cars are CensoredCensoredCensoredCensoreded up. __________________ BattleVersion Mishimoto DDay Kaaz G-Dimension P2M BrianCrower CPpistons K&Wautobody Drifting.com RaysWheels SpeedOMotive Rotora AIT Racing AODA HouseOfKolor CompetitionClutch BullseyePower

08-24-2005, 12:20 AM	#60
CrazyHawaiian Sample One Time!! Join Date: May 2003 Location: Hawaii Posts: 1,276	Where did this idea that passing = win come from? I think it is the result of people interpreting tandem battling wrong. If you guys think any series or event in the USA played any part in founding this sport, I'm sorry to say, but you are flat out wrong. This sport has been going on in Japan for over a decade before it became popular in the USA. If anyone had any say in the foundations of drifting, its the guys from Japan. To really find the "answer" here I think you guys need to analyze how competitions are done in Japan, and then compare it to how it has been going on in the USA. And I dont mean just watch some videos and interpret it as you see fit, I mean actually figgure out whats going on, maybe even talk to some people involved. In Japan you might see a pass here or there, but it only happens when the lead car makes a big mistake and spins out or goes off course. While it may appear the following car is going for a pass all the time, that is not whats going on. The following car is trying to stay as close to the lead car as possible at all times without making contact. He's showing how much control he has by remaining inches apart through multiple turns at speed. That is what makes tandem drifting battles exciting. Having two cars sliding sideways at high speeds only inches apart. Passing has nothing to do with it. I do think drifting in the USA would become too aggressive if passing became an acceptable way of winning. I think we would end up with a bunch of people crashing into eachother, and thats not drifting to me. Car control would become secondary and focus would be put on car placement. Its definately not where I want to see the sport go. Drifting is not a race, its an exhibition of car control and I want to see it stay that way. Last edited by CrazyHawaiian; 08-24-2005 at 12:28 AM.

10-13-2005, 08:20 AM	#70
Walther Registered User Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 26	when I mentioned a union when I was writting this it had never crossed my mind to "boycott" anything but I guess if your a cry baby that cannot communicate it is very likely that that is what is gonna happen, so I guess it might very well be a bad idea? My intentions when I said that was just to start establishing a line of communication so that the drivers can voice their opinion as a whole and perhaps the series they are racing on can better understand what the driver's thinking and opinion's on matters such as track lay out or even just concerns and ideas that can help in future events. I mean maybe its me and im just picky but if I was a driver at the level they are trying to compete at then why are so many things handled unprofesionally at times? Now dont get me wrong and please correct me if I am mistaken but I think it is unfair for track lay outs to be changed (even if it is a slight change) before and after practice or even qualifying rounds, and also I belive that unseeded drivers should get more track time. I know things are starting to change and dont get me wrong Formula D has done a lot and im sure it is hard work to be so organized but if you are going to be considered a pro then the series you are racing should handle themselfs as profesionals and minimise at the very least little situations like this. I mean I myself am a nobody but I still hear the same complaints from different drivers and teams and it just baffles me as to why small problems cannot be addressed and took care of in a timely manner, so that is why it crossed my mind that perhaps the drivers need to speak up as a whole. Pluss who knows I am probably completly wrong but I was thinking if the drivers spoke up then perhaps it might be easier for Formula D to work together alongside them to better this fast growing motorsport instead of looking at the internet forums. If anyone feels like I am taking a shot at them then you are wrong, my intentions are not to put anyone down but merely to just give my 2 cents just like the rest of you and then perhaps maybe I myself can better understand the situation. I know that having a driver's union is not as simple as it sounds but what else can they do so that all those privateers and small shops that want to stay commited and dedicated to driving F.D. can be heard and taken seriously? This is not a retorical question by the way im serious what else can they do? Last edited by Walther; 10-13-2005 at 08:23 AM.

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08-22-2005, 08:01 PM	#51
Mike Peters Registered User Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Huntsville, TX Posts: 1,020	IIRC there is a rule stating something to the effect of ' if the follow car makes contact with the lead car causing a crash/spin the follow car is disqualified and the lead car automatically wins ' at least in FD i know there is a rule like that to some effect

08-22-2005, 08:10 PM	#53
hatebbobbarker Registered User Join Date: May 2004 Location: Riverside, CA Posts: 693	link didnt work

08-22-2005, 10:17 PM	#54
Octagon Circle Track Guy Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Cleveland, Ohio. Posts: 324	Nobody is suggesting that drift cars start welding on nerf bars and such like dirt late models. We're not asking for that and it's rarely the case - that I've seen - that a scenario like that happens when a pass is attempted. Personally speaking, I think that some of tandem's most exciting moments are when the trailing car is poking its nose in mid-drift to look for that opening for a pass. You're right, Alex, that this isn't dirt track racing. This is drifting, but it's still motorsport, it's still competition, and the quickest (and hardest) way to win is still getting in front of the other guy. Drifting in this country won't become the weekly feature at Shady Bowl Raceway (which is an actual track here in Ohio) just because the pass is heralded as a win. Let's just better police what constitutes a good pass. One more point on the dirt track v drift statement: It would be neat to see a drift car with a cantilever rear suspension so that it lifts the inside front wheel during the drift to carry the weight transfer during the slide. If you've ever seen a dirt track late model doing its corner wheelie, you know what I mean.

08-23-2005, 01:17 AM	#55
CrazyHawaiian Sample One Time!! Join Date: May 2003 Location: Hawaii Posts: 1,276	Its hard for me to compare drifting to other motorsports because drifting is not racing. You dont need to be in front to win and you dont have to have the fastest lap time to win. You have to have the best style to win. I think there is a point where tandem battles can become too aggressive, and I consider that bad style. The guy in front should not have to modify his line because of the guy in the rear. If the guy in the rear is so much better, to the point where he could pass, he should just show it by continuing to put pressure on the front car. When the tables are turned and he is leading then he should be able to pull away and get the win. Like alot of people, I also think tandem is the most exciting when the following car puts his front bumper right up next to the leading car applying pressure. But I think where some of us have differences in opinion is where it goes from there. To me, just putting that pressure on the leading car is all I need to see. I dont need to see a pass to determine a winner. I give respect to a driver that is able to consistently apply pressure at a close range without causing contact. Other drivers will also respect that driver because they will build confidence to know that driver has enough control to keep the situation from getting dangereous. Compare that to a driver that will apply pressure to go for a pass and possibly make a reckless move. How do you think that makes other drivers feel?

08-23-2005, 02:12 PM	#57
Octagon Circle Track Guy Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Cleveland, Ohio. Posts: 324	Crazy Hawaiian, you charge that drifting becomes too aggressive when drivers push for the pass and therefore loses some of its "spirit". Well, here's the way I - as a competitor - see a chance to pass. I'm starting out trailing in the first run. I can come out of this run with four outcomes. Outcome 1: Advantage Opponent - I either dropped behind because I wasn't as fast as the opponent, or I received fewer points because I didn't have enough angle/smoke or chose a loose line. Outcome 2: Advantage Even - I matched my opponent move for move. I didn't gain ground, but I didn't lose it either. I wasn't better, but I wasn't worse. Outcome 3: Advantage Me - I was poking my nose in on my opponent, running faster or more sideways on a better line. I impressed the judges with superior driving. But here's the kicker, all of this can be undone in the second run. With outcome 1 or 2, I have to run away from the opponent and push my car even harder than I did in the first run to make up for the lack of results in the first run. If I make one mistake or my opponent is able to step it up in the second run, I'm hosed. With Outcome 3, I have a little more breathing room, but I still have to keep ahead of my opponent, put space between me and him, and throw-up an angle he can't match. If I can't do any of those, the run goes to a one more time, and I have another shot at losing the round PLUS I risk breakage on my car because of added time running. Now, here's Outcome #4 Outcome #4: Win by Passing - I'm faster on my run while matching/bettering my opponent's angle. I find a better line than him and get around him at or after the first clipping point. What happens now is I get to conserve my equipment and run an easy, cut-and-paste line on the second run that just barely keeps me in front. The pressure is off, the win is practically mine, and I can concentrate on how to change the setup/approach the track in the next round, making my chances for an overall victory that much better. And with a decent paycheck, national (and international exposure) for my sponsors, and that many more points towards a championship all lying after that win, I'm going to go for that win right away. It's professional motorsport guys. This is what happens in professional motorsport - you aim to win, and hang on tenaciously to whatever chance of winning you have like a wolf whose jaws are clamped on the throat of an elk.

08-23-2005, 04:02 PM	#58
TIREKILLER Registered User Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 78	A pass should have no relavence! Its not hard to pass a slower/less powerful car, even in a drift. The challenge of being in the back during a tandem run is FOLLOWING. Its much harder to adapt your (fast) style to a slower competitor YOU have to change your technique and prove that you can drift in any situation. Not that you can blast past your competitor and make a run just like you would in a solo run. If your leading you run YOUR line! The same one you have been running all day, the one that got you to the tandem rounds in the first place. That is to say that you should also be running balls out all day no matter what anyway! The only reason that the trailing car should cross the end of the judged area first is if the lead car makes a horible mistake like a spin or some other off track event. Which would automaticaly give the advantage to the trailing car.

08-23-2005, 05:13 PM	#59
Drift Brick Registered User Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 141	whay are we changing what has been one of the founding rules of competitive drifting from day1? "Pass=win" is a part of the very foundation fo drifting as a sport. If passing and aggressiveness isnt encouraged, then I might as well be watching synchronized swimming (as so many older guys fomr the SCCA love to remind us). I love drifting, but part of my love for the sport comes from my love of touring car racing, rally, etc. with passing emliminated as a competitive option, or (even worse) becoming a formality, I think we'd see tandem become boring. the point is to pressure the other guy. to get him to lose his line and his lunch- to be the better, harder, faster, more aggressive driver. I know finishing first isnt the objective here, but alot of drifting's appeal comes from the high speed, hardcore nature of it. then again, I am more of a speed first, then angle kind of guy. so I see two distinct approaches to judging tandem here. 1. Leader drives the best, fastest, smoothest drift line he/she can, while maintaining angle and smoke. follower mimics this line to the best of his ability, trying to do the same thing better. passes occur after mistakes like spins or understeers, or when the leader runs WAY wide. (which would result in a "0" score for them anyway, except in the case of running super wide.) 2. Leader drives the best, fastest, smoothest drift line he/she can, while maintaining angle and smoke, while protecting against a pass and trying to make the follower break his line or stop drifting. Folower tries to be faster, have more angle, and get as close to the leader as possible. if the opportunity presents itself for a pass, he does. (If he hits the other car enough to make either driver correct, its a 0 score for him.) option2 reminds me more of D1, where the objective is to get inside the leader and steal his line or pass. Formula D is more like the first option... and it shouldnt be, in my opinion. I know that the US is different from Japan, the tracks are different, the cars are different, the drivers are different. but why should the rules be? if it comes up in practice that something like what happened at wall w/ the milano S13 could happen again and give some car an unfair advantage, THATS WHAT THE JUDGES ARE FOR!!!!!!!!!! They should see it coming because they have superior motorsport experience, should have driven (or at least ridden the course, and they should let the drivers know what is and isnt acceptable there. Keiichi does it all the time. like at Irwindale- " hitting the wall is OK, as long as you dont correct." Or ebisu- "if the right front tire passes the middle of the kerbing, youre considered off-course and out of control." this is all doable. just get drivers to judge. (there, I said it.) and yes, i know Tarzan is a judge and who he is and how he drives and what hes done, etc. I was at D1 when the viper came out. Ive seen him run time attack, and Ive seen a lot of option videos with him. im aware that he is, in fact, a fantastic driver. also, I know about the other japanese guy, whos name I cant recall. but he qualified for D1, so he probably doesnt suck too much .

08-29-2005, 06:17 PM	#61
Octagon Circle Track Guy Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Cleveland, Ohio. Posts: 324	Plenty of other drivers have lost this year because of mechanical difficulties (Forsberg included) so Rhys can live with a runner-up finish that still gave him the Championship. Seriously, mechanical failure is as much a part of motorsports as mechanical superiority. Run big or go home.

10-08-2005, 04:19 AM	#63
CrazyHawaiian Sample One Time!! Join Date: May 2003 Location: Hawaii Posts: 1,276	In the 05 FD Finals at Irwindale I think Gushi got robbed. I dont think any "hard calls" were made there, only the wrong calls. Re-gripping should be punished. And seeing how the points standings for the season came out so close with Gushi and Sam, left a sour taste in my mouth. I dont know much about the points system but I think that battle determined who would have been 2nd or 3rd for the season. Was a shame somrt sort of politics seemed to take place.

10-12-2005, 08:42 AM	#64
Nismo Guest Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Upland, California Posts: 183	In the beggining of the season the judges said that the way they judge is on palm pilots, then they input the score idividually then add them up. But toward the end of the season I never saw them with any palm pilots and it seemed like the just tossed a coin in the air and decided on that.

10-12-2005, 12:14 PM	#65
Walther Registered User Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 26	I just hope for the sake of the sport that all the BIG sponsors dont just back out after they all get their wins that could be detremental to the drifting community. I say support your local drift clinics there is nothing anyone can do in regards of what Formula D does with their series, I think the pro drivers need to get together and create a union...not to b*tch and complain about who should of won what or take anything away from anyone (after all the season is over and we all need to move on), but so that they can give input on course lay out, and perhaps re-evaluate the way points are scored, and this of course has to be very well organized and there must be a lot of communication and all points be brought up before any event takes place so that there is no controversy during an event no matter how unfair a judges decision may seem to others. Yes I agree with most of you and disagree with a lot of you but that does not matter because in the end as a whole it seems that the community just wants drifting to grow as a whole. In my opinion I really think that Formula D needs to make sure that ALL the judges must have had an extensive profesional racing background and has some drifting background as well. I might be wrong in a lot of things but this is just my opinion and I hope it might inspire some of you with ideas to help this motorsport grow!

10-12-2005, 03:34 PM	#66
Octagon Circle Track Guy Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Cleveland, Ohio. Posts: 324	Reference Talladega's history to see how well a driver's union works, bucko. It's been tried before, and it was shot down in a heartbeat.

10-12-2005, 04:21 PM	#67
swifty949 Battle*Garage Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: The LBC Posts: 643	in a perfect world, a union would sure sound nice...lets face it. If drivers boycott, there will be 100 others in line wanting to take thier place. A union needs funding to operate...a lot of the drivers dont have money, intrest in politics, nor the time for a union...

10-13-2005, 09:39 PM	#72
Octagon Circle Track Guy Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: Cleveland, Ohio. Posts: 324	#1 - Formula Drift is two seasons old: That they're able to plan Season 3 without the Sword of Damocles hanging around is a small miracle. It takes time to grow an organization, and two years is not enough time especially when you're surrounded by 50+ year old organizations. #2 - The Series Comes First: I hate to break it to the drivers, the teams, the builders, and the sponsors, (especially because at one point or another I've been all four), but the SANCTIONING BODY is in control and the SANCTIOING BODY is the most important thing. Without Formula Drift, you stay at home waiting for D1 to come over again. It's Formula Drift's primary obligation to see to it that competitors have fair competitions, have a safe place to compete, and get paid for competing. All else is ENTIRELY THE TEAMS' RESPONSIBILITY. #3 - Teams Are Sink or Swim: This is motorsports, kiddos, and highly competitive motorsports at that. The level of car prep, level of driver skill, and level of tuning is increasing at an exponential rate, and as such costs are escalating too. If you can't compete under the same rules as everyone else, it's not the sanctioning body's responsibility to help you compete, it's your responsibility to FOLLOW THE RULES. Like 'em or lump 'em, the France family got NASCAR to be bigger than stick & ball sports by exerting dictatorial control over the teams, the rules, and race procedure. You turn the series over to some sort of council of teams and drivers and you will end up in the same self-destructive boat as Trans-Am and/or CART. I've been around motorsport my whole life, as a driver, a builder, as crew, as a journalist, and even in the political end. Formula Drift has issues, but they need to exert more control over the goings on at their events, more authority, and LESS listening to suggestions of competitors and other constituents.

10-14-2005, 06:46 AM	#73
CrazyHawaiian Sample One Time!! Join Date: May 2003 Location: Hawaii Posts: 1,276	I think that type of approach will work for racing, but I dont think it will work out too well with drifting unless the judging is really good. Racing is clean cut, time based, no questions asked. But if there is a feeling that the judging at a drifting series is not very good, its gonna drive people away. I dont think anyone is trying to say FD itself has a problem, but there are just some major judging related things that dont seem to make sense compared to what you see in Japan events. Stuff like re-gripping and going for a pass when there is no room, its obvious stuff that should be punished. Very different from comparing angles or lines where there would be a bigger leeway for the judge to make a call they see fit and you have to accept it. Its confusing to see some obviously wrong things being selectively overlooked by the judges. In order for the sport to grow the series should want new and upcomming talent working hard to enter the events. This will be hard to do if the new and upcomming drivers have doubts about the judging. I think FD should listen to the current drivers. Not so much on the specifics of who what when where, but just the general idea that maybe something is wrong and needs to be looked at.