FORMULA D Rule Changes...

[olddrifter]

Cars with PRE-APPROVED suppension mods that were out side the normal rules have been a part of the FD from the start. They were just keep under raps by all. The whole point seens to be you did not ask in advance!!!!!!!!!!
Its seems that a few builders/teams appear to get more chances to bend/break the rules than everyone else, but, they may have some insite into how to get thing done better than the rest of the teams.....

[courantcom]

Originally Posted by olddrifter

Cars with PRE-APPROVED suppension mods that were out side the normal rules have been a part of the FD from the start. They were just keep under raps by all. The whole point seens to be you did not ask in advance!!!!!!!!!!
Its seems that a few builders/teams appear to get more chances to bend/break the rules than everyone else, but, they may have some insite into how to get thing done better than the rest of the teams.....

SA Drift has been asking for a list of competitors with pre-approved suspension mods, and Formula D has yet to produce such a list. It's been days now, and I can't help but think that if a list were to be produced, it would be one that would have been authored just now. With that all said and done, what's to stop everything from suddenly being "pre-approved"?

With a system where things are just to be "kept under wraps", like you had mentioned, a situation much like this one is bound to occur. The scenario where favortism and isolation quickly becomes the backdrop -- no matter how well anyone can try and deny it. It's an easy question with a very hard answer. Why can one car do it, and not the other. You can't just answer that by saying that the other car asked, so we said yes.

There are a lot of different sides to the understanding of how this can proceed... from the side of a governing entity (sanctioning body), the side of the entering entity (SA Drift), other competitors (possible protesters), the side of sponsors and spectators, and so on and so forth.

Racing is nothing new. Rules and regulations have always played a crucial role in the spirit of competition. The most competitive cars are always on the edge of the rules. Extremely competitive cars are built with the rules specifically in mind.

Racing isn't new for a lot of us here, and both you and I can speak on that behalf. Okay so now everything is out in the open. What should be done to make it all right from this point forward?

I'm still in favor for a:
1) PENALTY FEE (for not following proper procedures in seeking pre-approval)
2) APPROVAL from that point forward.
3) Immediate VTS sheets for each competitor.
4) remove the word "basic" from Rule 8.3.1

The car should be approved with whatever modifications are on it. Again, whatever modifications are on there clearly does not give that car a significant enough edge to dominate the series. It loses against other cars just the same.

A decision needs to be made fast because whatever needs to happen is going to have to come from Japan (personnel and parts).

[courantcom]

...this is a good thread.

[tyndago]

Originally Posted by olddrifter

Cars with PRE-APPROVED suppension mods that were out side the normal rules have been a part of the FD from the start. They were just keep under raps by all. The whole point seens to be you did not ask in advance!!!!!!!!!!...

The whole point is they did not get "pre-approval". They did it with what seems like a misunderstanding of "OEM" and "basic suspension".

8.3.1 The basic OEM suspension design must remain. Any changes to design type suspension must be preaproved by Formula Drift.

8.3.3 Modified or aftermarket suspension parts are only allowed if pre-approved by Formula Drift.

8.3.3 Modified or aftermarket suspension parts
8.3.3 Modified or aftermarket suspension parts

Read those words a few times. Think about the scope of what "suspension parts" could cover. Then show me everyone that competes in the series "pre-approval". If its a verbal, or taken for granted item , then that is an issue.

[courantcom]

Originally Posted by courantcom

Did anyone know that rule 8.3.3 states that Modified or aftermarket suspension parts are only allowed if pre-approved by FORMULA DRIFT. Unless every single team got a pre-approval, then I guess every single team is in violation of this rule.

Maybe the pre-approval was a "nod and a wink", and I wasn't paying attention. Oh wait, I should ask how much it costs to pay attention.

I said that already.

[Bebop]

Formula D needs to chime in quick

I'm starting too loose alto of respect for them not explaining whats really going on.

Funny when Brutal Kong posted the feedback of the new jersey event Jim and Jarrod were quick to to respond. In this case, we ha-vent heard directly from the SA team or formula D.

I say $500 re-inspection fee
Pass
And probably change the rule....

[courantcom]

Originally Posted by blaze1

Formula D needs to chime in quick

I'm starting too loose alto of respect for them not explaining whats really going on.

Funny when Brutal Kong posted the feedback of the new jersey event Jim and Jarrod were quick to to respond. In this case, we ha-vent heard directly from the SA team or formula D.

I say $500 re-inspection fee
Pass
And probably change the rule....

There's no set "fee". It's totally up to whatever they wanna do. Either way, there's more than likely going to be a "fee" of some sort. The amount they ask for will be a good judge to how "fair" they want to be as well.

Are you in favor of VTS sheets? Do you think that this is something that every enthusiast at every level will benefit from?

[courantcom]

Originally Posted by tyndago

The whole point is they did not get "pre-approval". They did it with what seems like a misunderstanding of "OEM" and "basic suspension".

8.3.1 The basic OEM suspension design must remain. Any changes to design type suspension must be preaproved by Formula Drift.

8.3.3 Modified or aftermarket suspension parts are only allowed if pre-approved by Formula Drift.

8.3.3 Modified or aftermarket suspension parts
8.3.3 Modified or aftermarket suspension parts

Read those words a few times. Think about the scope of what "suspension parts" could cover. Then show me everyone that competes in the series "pre-approval". If its a verbal, or taken for granted item , then that is an issue.

The realm of "suspension parts" will cover everything including adjustable arms, adjustable tension rods, adjustable shocks, aftermarket coil-over suspension, urethane bushings, subframe bushings, etc. There should be written "pre-approval" for all of that then if this is the case. Am I reading this wrong?

[olddrifter]

We were there in the begining and have never saw a list of pre-approved parts or mods and do not think there is one, or at least available to independant teams...99% of all preapproved mods that have been outside of the printed rules have gone to teams of major sponsors of FD, but like I said that may just have better knowlegde on how to get things done and access to FD personal that not everone has or takes advantage of....

the Skyline is alot closer to the wagon the the TC, but they new how to make the rules work in there favor and tire company is better than a parts store for a sponsor....but FD control's the rules and its there ball to take home....

[courantcom]

Originally Posted by olddrifter

We were there in the begining and have never saw a list of pre-approved parts or mods and do not think there is one, or at least available to independant teams...99% of all preapproved mods that have been outside of the printed rules have gone to teams of major sponsors of FD, but like I said that may just have better knowlegde on how to get things done and access to FD personal that not everone has or takes advantage of....

the Skyline is alot closer to the wagon the the TC, but they new how to make the rules work in there favor and tire company is better than a parts store for a sponsor....but FD control's the rules and its there ball to take home....

SA Drift is also sponsored by Toyo Tires, and they eventually pit out of the Toyo Tires support rig alongside the Scion tC.

At this point, I'm more inclined to believe that what you said about pre-approved mods have gone to teams of major sponsors of FD. Even if other teams have access to FD personnel over others, it is ultimately the DUTY of the sanctioning body to practice fairness even if that means giving some teams personal attention to make sure that they are up to par. When I say "personal attention", I mean for the sanctioning body to perhaps contact the team manager from time to time to make sure that they are ok.

Remember competing in NIRA drag racing? They had someone going around the paddocks making sure that everyone had the correct contingency stickers on the car...and if you didn't have them, they would get them for you and bring them to you. Things like this is what made competitors stay loyal to NIRA till its final season, and also made others want to race with NIRA as well.

Even in World Challenge, the support staff on hand was extremely helpful. They were available, professional, and understood at all times that time is of the essence.

FD controls the rules at their event. They have the option at this point to set precedence that will immediately earn the respect of all. Again, the overall "big picture" point of this thread is to bring awareness of what's going on to people that have no idea of what goes on when the cars aren't at the track. The final power of everything is always up to the racers. I had mentioned this before...but an event can be held without sponsors, and without spectators. Let's see how a drifting event can be held without drifters. It's the competitors that brings the crowd. Spectators don't clamor around being excited about how the Falken race rigs are going to be there. They don't care that my own sexyness (j/k!) is gonna be there... They clamor around being excited about how the Falken DRIVERS are going to be there. They TRAVEL to support their favored teams. They wanna see a Scion tC drift! They wanna see how a Skyline goes up against a Viper. They don't travel to go see what vendor booth may or may not be at the next event. Sponsors take advantage of a crowd being present at an event. They care about how many people come to the event, not about how they can bring people to the event. That's not their concern. People come to the event because of the racers. Let me say it again...people come to the event because of the racers.

The sanctioning body assembles the racers together at one place, and gives them all a level playing field for everyone to enjoy.

Everyone on this website is a drift fan in one way or another. Everyone on this website has been to a drift event because they drift, or they have friends that drift, or they are part of a team that drifts. Nobody goes there because they heard Koyo Radiators is giving away t-shirts.

I know that this isn't NASCAR or anything, but if something within that paddock was going on like this, the fans themselves will be calling in and voicing their opinions, and front page news will be made. "Takatori's Skyline declared ineligible!"

So now what we have here is a sanctioning body that has the position to work with a particular racer. Everyone is a critic to some degree. There has been over 2100 views on this tread alone, but only 85 total posts. This is a discussion! Let's talk.

[AllMotorKing]

I suspect that the only thing illegal we should all be concerned about is what victor does in the back of that big rig at truck stops. hehe.

Anyways, I'm sure a compromise can be reached; hopefully sooner than later.

[Brian]

This is was too much talking about just changing a front coilover and suspension arm.
jesus christ.

[courantcom]

Originally Posted by Brian

This is was too much talking about just changing a front coilover and suspension arm.
jesus christ.

...because it branches out to more than just that.

[courantcom]

Originally Posted by AllMotorKing

I suspect that the only thing illegal we should all be concerned about is what victor does in the back of that big rig at truck stops. hehe.

Anyways, I'm sure a compromise can be reached; hopefully sooner than later.

I gave you a tour of the truck already. You know how the trailer get be a-rockin'. ;-) I hope a compromise can be reached and it has to be sooner than later. This isn't quite something that needs the dust to settle.

[Slapshotnerd]

My original question still stands...

Originally Posted by Slapshotnerd

So the question that comes to my mind is...

How hard would it be for Autobacs to make the car legal??

If the C34 suspension isn't legal, how hard would it be for them to convert BACK to R34 suspensioN?

[olddrifter]

At this point I do not think its about converting it back its about fairness and a even playing field..... for EVERYONE...........

[courantcom]

Originally Posted by Slapshotnerd

My original question still stands...



If the C34 suspension isn't legal, how hard would it be for them to convert BACK to R34 suspensioN?

I already answered this...

[courantcom]

Originally Posted by olddrifter

At this point I do not think its about converting it back its about fairness and a even playing field..... for EVERYONE...........

...so it's agreed? The fairness and an "even playing field" is now what is on the table.

[kidynomite]

So when are we just going to put all this car building aside and have drivers run around the track with as much money as they can and wheover has the most at the end wins. I think it would be cheaper and might get some more sponsors... But keep in mind one toe off the track is big deductions.

[tyndago]

Cough , Cough..... coil over Corvette. Yes thats the same basic design as the stock Corvette leaf springs.

I bet thats on the "pre-approved" list now that I might have pointed it out.

[olddrifter]

Here how to put this to bed!!!!
If you give anyone a chance to make any mods not in the rule book you make it available to eveyone by send out change to the rules to cover that exception and allow everyopne the same chance to take advantage of it.
If a rule is questioned make a ruling and inform "everyone" so they know why or why not.. allowing certian teams to make changes not available to everyone may make it look like favors are made when your not. If the TC is allowed tell everyone why and give them the same options for there new cars. State why and how to do it legally and what the same platform really means . if you need the manufactures statment or what ever make it a legal change tell everyone. If certain car can mod suppension to remove anti-squat the tell everyone what way is legal and what is not, do not keep it a from the other teams. If you can use spindle for another car to get more steering angle let everyone have the same change, keeping things on the down low makes it look wrong even when its not. If I can mod my fire wall for a better engine swap the everyone should have the same chance... I think FD is trying to do the best they can , but allowing changes for some and not sharing the info make it look bad. and appear to take sides when their not...???

[stedriftward]

I miss D1 I don't like American Hoochies and Gangsters! I have a feeling if FD keeps this up this will be their fan base Too many of those ghetto fools at FD events already! Kinda off the subject but I have seen a decline in the quality of people who come to FD events in the last two years.

[Bebop]

Originally Posted by stedriftward

I miss D1 I don't like American Hoochies and Gangsters! I have a feeling if FD keeps this up this will be their fan base Too many of those ghetto fools at FD events already! Kinda off the subject but I have seen a decline in the quality of people who come to FD events in the last two years.

WTF is this?

this isn't about the people, people coming out too watch drifting is all positive no matter what background.

I really wish I could see what your talking about, but this is waaaay off topic.

[sa-drift.com]

http://www.drifting.com/forums/general-chat-drifting-discussion-news-and-site-updates/25213-press-release-team-sa-r34-deemed-ineligible-for-formula-drift.html


The Team SA R34 has recently been deemed ineligible for the Formula DRIFT series in it's current state. The team has been accessed several fines, penalties, and faces possible removal from the series if the issues are not remedied.

The main issue stems from the vehicle's current OEM front strut suspension setup. The setup, being OEM, is in compliance with the Japanese version of the rulebook but apparently not with the English version according to the current interpretation. Despite the suspension setup remaining OEM and from the same chassis, Formula D currently has deemed it ineligible. The decision has come as quite a shock to many in the series as a decision to allow the Scion tC to compete in the series seemingly put to rest the same issue at the start of the season. The decision effectively made the chassis, not the model, the deciding factor in vehicle eligibility. (a decision we are very much in agreement with) Unfortunately, for Team SA, consistency with this ruling is not being seen, leaving many to wonder how level the playing field is when what applies to one vehicle, does not apply to another.

The other question that has been left unanswered at this point is why, if the model of the car is now the deciding factor instead of the chassis, the current OEM suspension setup on the R34 has not been allowed. Considering that it is using OEM parts and does not give the vehicle an unfair advantage, the question remains. We must also note that several other vehicles in the series have more drastic changes in suspension design. Are these suspension changes unapproved and deemed ineligible now as well? At this point, we cannot comment on the situation as we have more unanswered questions than answers.

Formula DRIFT has yet to respond to requests for a description of the appeal process to this decision, or a detailed list of previously given rule exemptions. We fear that neither exist, and the series is unprepared for this type of action. The lack of both puts several vehicles in the series in question. Formula DRIFT Chief Steward has already stated that "we have several other actions pending with other competitors," leaving us to wonder if they will be subject to the same fines and penalties.

Despite the rulebook's lack of a appeal process, or a list of previously allowed exemptions for specific vehicles, and TIME, Team SA is continuing to explore options to have this decision overturned, seeking a sense of consistency, balance and fairness to be restored to the series.

[MonkeySlide]

I think the main problem/issue here above everything else is that the current Formula D rule book is much too vague and gives Formula D way too much "unless we see fit" wiggle room which leaves them to change the rules on their whim.

This lends to those believing that this is done so that they play favorites to OEM and more "popular" teams.

When one looks at the rule book..even though the background is white and the text is black..there is way too much grey.

No legitimate motorsport short of lawnmower racing has sections of their rules come off so vaguely.

I whole heartedly believe that Drifting is a legitimate motorsport and I wholeheartedly believe that Formula D is a more than legitimate series.

It's obvious that their rules need to be revised in a more finite fashion to prevent the impression that they would play favorites.

It's sad that it took the disfranchisement of Team SA to bring this problem to light but hopefully this will mean that Formula D will remedy this situation so that it never happens again to any other team.

And hopefully they will eliminate any excuse for critics to attack the legitimacy of the series. Because trust me...the last thing drifting needs right now is for the critics to have more fuel. It's been almost a decade and drift enthusiasts are still trying to defend the "judged" aspect of the sport on forums all over the internet.