LIMIT on TIRES for the Weekend?

[YOitzJDM]

I came up with a random idea....

what if FD put a limit on the number of tires you were allowed to burn in a weekend?

It seems like one of the big things separating the big boys from the small guys is the nearly endless supply of sticky tires. Sure, the tire to weight ratio was supposed to help, but Falken clearly has the stickiest tires (that barely last 2 laps at most tracks), with Hankooks being a close 2nd. Maybe if Falken and Hankook teams had to keep their practice time to a minimum while teams with tires that lasted longer could practice longer and work on their settings more, it would help level the playing field.

The old joke with Maxxis tires was that teams were changing them because they wanted to change them to be safe, not because they had to.

What if each driver was only allowed 24 tires per weekend? 2 sets for practice, 1 set for qualifying, then 3 full sets for competition on Saturday. Or if you can conserve your fronts and only go thru 3 sets of fronts all weekend, you can run 9 sets of rears. Top 32 to finals (or consolation) is 5 rounds. If you feel like you need to burn more tires in practice to have a better idea of what settings you should use to advance past top 32 or top 16, it's a risk you have to run.

If 24 is too few, maybe you could bump it up to 30. But the idea is to encourage teams to try to run a slightly harder compound that lasts more than 2 runs and is more on par with what all tire companies offer (let's face it, the Kenda / Nexen / Cooper tires are nowhere near the Falkens and Hankooks!)

I think NASCAR has a tire rule, right? I seem to recall hearing announcers talk about tire strategy and how they only have certain tires available to use...

[Justin Banner]

NASCAR, Grand Am, Formula 1, and a few others have a tire limit rule.

The only problem is you're really still not cutting costs. Teams with money to burn will still burn it, just somewhere else. Bebop told me of a great idea he had once that I thought would really revolutionize drifting here in the US. I'll let him detail it if he wants to.

[Lifer]

I feel that your on the right track YOitzJDM. Of course this idea is in its raw form on here, but with time and data you would be able to get it to be understood as a reasonable approach to evening out the teams.

@Justin - If you and Bebop (aka Blaze1) are working on an idea, please submit it here. I would like to check that out.

[Sancosys]

So what happens when a team that needs to change tires due to compound run out of tire because of the rule? It you limit one team they all become limited to be fair. If its known that some brands don't last as long and need to change more often compared to another brand you just limited the smaller team on how many tires they changed.

[driftfcbuckey]

The thing with this, is that if this were to come into play, it would hurt the spectators. Their "Favorite cars" would be on track alot less missing alot of run time.

It definitely would limit the run time when you have to conserve tires. I know this feeling all to well... It would showcase a lot more drivers having "hit or miss weekends" as opposed to pretty much going out and picking up the course no matter what, because of the endless run time with the dedicated rigs hauling tires being there..

[Bebop]

I brought this up years ago, folks called me a idiot.

BTW, a team can always use a lower grade longer lasting tires in practice and sticky tires in qualifying and tandem.

I.E. 502s in practice 615ks in comp

[sytfu]

^that. i've always tried to use my crappiest tires for random practice, then a set of good ones for qualifying, and then the good ones for comp.

[ASD Team]

This is getting crazy.

Here's the counter points, and not because we're obviously the team some of you are referring too.

1. Rules in all sports are supposed to be the same for all teams. Do you give the 5ft 8 inch basketball player a pair of stilts because he's not 7ft tall? Of course not.
The moment FD, or any other sporting sanctioning body starts handing out rules for some players that dont apply to others in order to "level competition" the whole spirit of competition and nature of any sport becomes somewhat of a joke.

2. The whole purpose of having a rulebook in any sport is to ensure that the competition is the same for everyone. It is not to "level out" the competition, but to ensure everyone is playing by the same set of rules. Those are two entirely different things.
In my opinion, FD is already on the cusp of doing that and playing with fire this year with the whole live axle vs IRS suspension rule, where some teams can modify suspension mounting points but others can't, dictated solely by the manufacturer of the car they have. Rules should be the same for everyone, and let the best man / driver / team win. Thats how sport is supposed to work.

3. What happens when a team gets to top eight but has to put their car on the trailer and go home because they ran out of tires? Bad for the team, much worse for the fans. How many bye runs do you want to see in top eight onward? Top eight onward is usually when the competition really heats up and everyone is laying it on the line. Thats not going to happen when teams are parking their cars for the rest of the event because they ran out of tires.

4. Safety. I dont want any driver getting hurt because he was trying to go one more round on worn out tires, and he ends up hard in the fence because the tire blew out. Not to mention the car might not make it back for the next round, because cars cost money to fix.

5. Road race and roundy round series can limit tires because in those forms of motorsport the driver has input on limiting tire wear while driving the car. In drifting, the driver has zero input on how much tire he is using if he wants to be competitive. Judges (and fans) want drivers to be on throttle as often as possible. That causes tire use the drift driver has zero control over.

6. What if the more competitive teams are not running at the front because of tire brand X, but because they work harder at being competitive? Any single brand of tire does not instantly turn a mid-pack team into a front running team. If that were the case, wouldn't everyone be buying brand X tire to compete on? Do you really think the front running teams would not run at the front anymore if they had to change tire brands?

7. Raising funding to go into motorsport is just another requirement of competing. No one has ever, or will ever figure out how to limit motorsport teams from trying to raise more money and spend it on their program. There will always be some that have more, and others with less. Sometimes those positions will change. There is nothing that can be done to limit the spirit and competitive desire of people who want to succeed, or limit how hard they work to try and obtain results they desire. That also includes raising money to compete at the highest level.

I could go on and on... but I think you get the point. There is no magic solution. Those that work hard at their chosen craft, be it drivers or teams or financial partners, have a chance to succeed. Some are luckier than others, some work harder than others, and the podium results at the end of the weekend should most times prove that out if the same rulebook is applied to everyone involved.

There should be no free ride. This isnt meant to be easy. If it was easy, I'd give it up and go find something hard to try and achieve. I'm sure top teams like Gary Gardella Racing, Rhys Millen Racing, Chris Forsberg Racing, and a bunch of other hard workers in the FD field irrespective of their success on track would agree with me on that point.

[Sancosys]

ASD nailed it /thread

[YOitzJDM]

1 - the rules are the same for everybody. don't use more than 24 (or 30 tires). It's a pretty simple rule. Like bebop said, if you think you might run low, practice less or use a tire that doesn't wear as fast in practice. Most of the lower tier drivers don't have problems with tire wear (and many of them don't go thru half as many tires as the big teams do anyways). JR can burn 80 tires in a weekend, where as Taka is lucky to burn 20 (and JR's tires are much stickier than Taka's tires). is that fair? Because that's status quo... the NBA did ban shoes that they felt gave an unfair advantage to people who wore them.

2 - Again, this rule would make things the same for anyone. right now, if you are sponsored by a tire company, you have access to resources that other teams do not. F1 and Nascar limit the amount of testing that can be done away from the track. This is less invasive than that.

3 - After spending 1 or 2 events on a trailer come top 8, I think teams would start using harder compound tires that will last longer to prevent that from happening. Seems pretty logical, right? I'm pretty sure that all tire companies competing in FD could choose a tire that will wear slower compared to the tires they were using now. Do you agree that the Falken 615K tire is stickier but wears faster than some of the tires that the competition uses?

4 - Again, nobody is forcing you to choose the tire to run. Just suggesting to be smart about balancing tire wear vs tire resources. Maybe competitors who think they might run up against the tire rule should take a few less runs in practice, or skip a 2nd qualifying run if they already have a good enough score to get in. That's a calculated risk some teams will have to take (just like teams that risk 2 tire stops or no tire stops in Nascar).

5 - Wrong again. less stickier tires = longer tire duration = still full throttle, just less forward bite.

6 - I'd venture to say that privateers who bought Falken tires last year did better overall that privateers who bought other brands. I feel that certain tires are sticker and do bring a competitive advantage if you can afford them. You can still buy the same tires if you want that advantage, you'll just have to put up with less practice time in order to conserve your 'good' tires.

7 - Several teams bring 5x or 10x as many tires as they need in a variety of sizes because of the resources they have, while other teams can barely afford to keep enough tires on the car for the weekend. This just minimizes the cubic dollars that teams can spend on this 1 resource.


Many people believe that Sport Compact Drag Racing declined very quickly after a few select teams started spending cubic dollars to be several tenths (or in some cases full seconds) faster than the competition, and rules weren't brought into play which actually limited the resources they used. The cars were limited on turbo size, but if you throw enough money at any sized turbo, you can make more horsepower. This isn't a budget limitation or an off-the-track testing limitation, just a limit on what can be used on a competition weekend. The teams with cubic dollars will still have better access to resources and still have more data and more testing available to them, but perhaps this will help contain it to keep it from getting out of hand.



Try again, ASD. You know that having 2 trailers full of 615k's is an advantage on track, and you're trying to keep the status quo. Give me another excuse why you should have a stable of 30 sets of super sticky fast wearing 615k's in various sizes at your disposal on a given weekend while a privateer that can barely afford 20 tires for a weekend should be left to struggle to keep up with a harder compound tire.

[ASD Team]

You're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to mine.

After running cars in I think every FD event since Long Beach 2006, excepting the first two events of 2007 when I was an engineering consultant for a Cup team, I'd like to think I have a pretty decent handle on what causes tire wear in FD. With the success we've been fortunate enough to have since then, I'd also like to think I know why we have had that success. Keep in mind that my FD career wasn't always with Falken. In 2006 I worked with Rhys Millens program, on Bridgestones. We narrowly missed winning the championship, on Bridgestones.

In my opinion, our team success working with Falken is not because we have access to as many tires as we want. We dont. We have a budget too.

And although I believe the RT615k to be a very good tire, forgive me for being a little offended when people give the tire, or our budget which is less per car than most of you would ever imagine, all of the credit.

Each car we take to every FD event has 28 tires available per car. I've never yet used all of them in a weekend as far as I can remember. We HAVE stopped during practice to conserve our tire count in the past. Wall Speedway comes to mind.

I'm not about to get into any further argument to substantiate my points. Disagree if you want, I feel I have made my points for everyone to evaluate in response to the original post. I find your response a little inflammatory, so feel free to shoot me down if you wish to continue. I won't be bothering to respond, like most other teams we're working long days getting prepared for the 2012 season.

I just reminded myself why I dont post much on public forums See you all at the track.

[brad_manka]

I think Ian has some very valid points. Another potential problem with a tire limit is that nobody knows how many one-more-times that they are going to have to run during the course of an event.

[Jeff Jones]

YOitzJDM , I do agree with what you are proposing, but ASD has some good safety points as well.

In the past at amateur events for practice, drivers only got 6 laps then they are cut off. This made things fair because the tire or equipment did not matter. It was all about being able to adapt.

At the same time, A team with a full size crew can do this better then a two man privater team.

At the most without stopping I have gotten about 12 laps at practice.
the lines can be up to 10 minutes long or longer for some tracks.
I have not seen teams pull off the track because of a lack of tires.

I think the big differences is the tread compound.
In 2009 FD tested tire compound for cheating but stopped in 2010.
There should be a set compound to use. I know this would be alot to ask and don't see it happening any time soon.
That's my thoughts.

[YOitzJDM]

Originally Posted by Jeff Jones

YOitzJDM , I do agree with what you are proposing, but ASD has some good safety points as well.

In the past at amateur events for practice, drivers only got 6 laps then they are cut off. This made things fair because the tire or equipment did not matter. It was all about being able to adapt.

At the same time, A team with a full size crew can do this better then a two man privater team.

At the most without stopping I have gotten about 12 laps at practice.
the lines can be up to 10 minutes long or longer for some tracks.
I have not seen teams pull off the track because of a lack of tires.

I think the big differences is the tread compound.
In 2009 FD tested tire compound for cheating but stopped in 2010.
There should be a set compound to use. I know this would be alot to ask and don't see it happening any time soon.
That's my thoughts.

I think the only way to do this would be a spec tire. Would you be OK with FD going to a spec tire?

with the way tire companies are dropping their sponsorship, they might not have much of an option. In the last 4 years they've lost Bridgestone, Maxxis, Toyo, and now BFG. I wouldn't be surprised if Federal doesn't return either. Might as well just make a spec tire for the series and make everyone buy them so there's no way to cheat.

[Cavi Mike]

I don't think ASD hit any proverbial nail on the head. He, like too many drifters, are looking at this from a winning standpoint. Look at it from an entertainment standpoint and all of those views will change drastically.

[5150 Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Justin Banner

NASCAR, Grand Am, Formula 1, and a few others have a tire limit rule.

True, but all these series i believe all run the same brand tire ( I know F1 does). A spec tire if you will designed for the series.

Originally Posted by Justin Banner

The only problem is you're really still not cutting costs. Teams with money to burn will still burn it, just somewhere else. Bebop told me of a great idea he had once that I thought would really revolutionize drifting here in the US. I'll let him detail it if he wants to.

Exactly. If you implement this rule in an attempt to even the playing field, then teams will just invest time and R&D in different area's. At what point does it stop?

Originally Posted by Bebop

I brought this up years ago, folks called me a idiot.

BTW, a team can always use a lower grade longer lasting tires in practice and sticky tires in qualifying and tandem.

I.E. 502s in practice 615ks in comp

Which will do absolutely nothing. More time will be needed to find a proper set up for two different tire compounds. All this is going to do is hurt the smaller teams that will need to burn up more rubber to fine tune their setup.

Originally Posted by YOitzJDM

Try again, ASD. You know that having 2 trailers full of 615k's is an advantage on track, and you're trying to keep the status quo. Give me another excuse why you should have a stable of 30 sets of super sticky fast wearing 615k's in various sizes at your disposal on a given weekend while a privateer that can barely afford 20 tires for a weekend should be left to struggle to keep up with a harder compound tire.

Maybe, just maybe ASD LIKE MANY OTHER TOP TEER TEAMS, WORKED THEIR *Censored**Censored**Censored*'S OFF TO GET WHERE THEY ARE AND MADE A NAME FOR THEMSELVES TO THE POINT WHERE BIG NAMES SPONSORS WANT TO WORK WITH THEM. I'm sorry, but if that gives them an advantage over the smaller privateer teams then so be it. Any one of those privateers has the opportunity to get in the same spot. Yes, this sport cost money. privateer or big name, it isn't a cheap ride. I get tired of hearing all the bitching about how this series is unfair because the privateers can't keep up with the big boys. At some point, your going to need to step up your game. If you really want a completely level playing field then everyone needs to run the same tire, same chassis, same engine displacement, etc. Basically Nascar.

Originally Posted by Cavi Mike

I don't think ASD hit any proverbial nail on the head. He, like too many drifters, are looking at this from a winning standpoint. Look at it from an entertainment standpoint and all of those views will change drastically.

Actually, i'd say he's looking at it from someone who has experience in the sport, as well as building some of the best drift cars to compete in the sport. And so what if he is looking at it from a drifters point of view? He wants to win. While it may not be necessary to win every event to get sponsors or keep them happy, anyone that is competing whether it be big name, or privateer, wants to do their best. But if you are looking at it from an entertainment standpoint, then I'd say this tire rule would be terrible. All your doing is limiting the amount of time a car has on the track, as well as the performance of the driver because he's to worried about conserving his tires for the next round.

FD is the premier drifting series in the U.S. This is where we see the best built machines compete. New technology and setups that many of us have dreamed of come to life. One of the biggest disappointments I had in drifting was not being able to see Nuformz drift challenger compete. Love it or hate it, it was built to the letter of the rule book and had alot of new features not seen in any other current drift cars.

Overall Tires are just one key of building a drift car. I have serious doubts that if you limit the number of tires used that you are going to see any more privateers on the podium and and lees "big teams" not.

[Bebop]

Originally Posted by 5150 Cruiser

Which will do absolutely nothing. More time will be needed to find a proper set up for two different tire compounds. All this is going to do is hurt the smaller teams that will need to burn up more rubber to fine tune their setup.

How do you know? Not trying to sound childish or anything but how do you know Matt Fields, or maybe Jeff Jones don't have a setup to make use of both good and crappy tires? In D1gp and a few other series teams have a qualifying setup and a tandem. Who says you can't have a soft and hard compound setup?


There's a whole lot of contradiction coming from both sides of the argument, thats why even though I brought this up years ago I'm not going to get in depth with my argument. Like Cavi Mike, my main concern is entertainment. If such rule was enforced it would only bring actually strategy to a already boring sport. Lets figure out how to get these cars closer together and the overall pace of the sport sped up then we can talk about implementing some actual strategy.

[my 1 88 u]

It's time to bring in classes

[sytfu]

classes would ultimately be the way to go.. if you grouped hp's and weights you would probably get more competitors and a larger show.

[5150 Cruiser]

Originally Posted by Bebop

How do you know? Not trying to sound childish or anything but how do you know Matt Fields, or maybe Jeff Jones don't have a setup to make use of both good and crappy tires? In D1gp and a few other series teams have a qualifying setup and a tandem. Who says you can't have a soft and hard compound setup?

Oh you can have a soft and hard setup. And I'm not saying that teams can't, or don't have these setups. But in order to get these set ups, your going to have to use tires. If one is limited to the amount of tires they have then

Originally Posted by Bebop

There's a whole lot of contradiction coming from both sides of the argument, thats why even though I brought this up years ago I'm not going to get in depth with my argument. Like Cavi Mike, my main concern is entertainment. If such rule was enforced it would only bring actually strategy to a already boring sport. Lets figure out how to get these cars closer together and the overall pace of the sport sped up then we can talk about implementing some actual strategy.

See, i can't see how this is a good idea from an entertainment stand point. You want to see drivers putting in their all in and every run right? If your worried about tire conservation, then you really think each driver is going to give their all? I'm all for strategy, but if your looking at this from an entertainment stand point then i don't see how this spices up the sport.
Not to sound like a *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored*, but all i hear is people being pissed off that their once backyard, home grown sport is now going main stream. Sports need to evolve. They need to grow. Instead of trying trying to punish the manufactures that produce great products, how about we put pressure on the companies to produce better products?

Originally Posted by my 1 88 u

It's time to bring in classes

Hell no! That idea is even worse than the tire restriction. If you can't compete on the level the FD is at, then stay in the smaller series until you can.

[my 1 88 u]

Originally Posted by 5150 Cruiser

Hell no! That idea is even worse than the tire restriction. If you can't compete on the level the FD is at, then stay in the smaller series until you can.

On the level? You mean 800hp V8's.

[Bebop]

Originally Posted by 5150 Cruiser

See, i can't see how this is a good idea from an entertainment stand point. You want to see drivers putting in their all in and every run right? If your worried about tire conservation, then you really think each driver is going to give their all? I'm all for strategy, but if your looking at this from an entertainment stand point then i don't see how this spices up the sport.
Not to sound like a *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored*, but all i hear is people being pissed off that their once backyard, home grown sport is now going main stream. Sports need to evolve. They need to grow. Instead of trying trying to punish the manufactures that produce great products, how about we put pressure on the companies to produce better products?

I don't know if your agreeing with me or misread what I just posted regarding the entertainment value.

But I am sorta a pissed off kid thats sad because the sport I once loved is no longer a dog fight but a game of automotive h.o.r.s.e. .

I think this is more of a challenge to the sponsors to create better products then a punishment.

Classes or restructure tandem rules, then we can worry about tire strategy/limitations.

[Cavi Mike]

Originally Posted by 5150 Cruiser

Instead of trying trying to punish the manufactures that produce great products....

I really hope you're joking. The "great products" that are used in almost every sanctioned body on the planet are only used in one place: There.

Sponsoring is just a form of advertisement. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. If you believe otherwise you're a fool. The only people who get punished are the fans.

The manufacturers were around before drifting and they'll be around when the next fun auto sport shows up and guess what they'll do? They'll do the exact same thing they've done with every sport: Shower drivers with cash to sport their product and tell them WIN WIN WIN or else we'll take that money away. Then the fans get stuck with some BS that doesn't even closely resemble what the whole thing was supposed to be about.

But hey, let's not punish the manufacturers.

Idiot.

[5150 Cruiser]

Originally Posted by my 1 88 u

On the level? You mean 800hp V8's.

Haters gonna hate. Your just pissed because you don't care for V8's and there dominating the series. There's a reason for it. There's easy to find, work on, build, relitivly cheap (espeacialy when compared to trying to make simular power numbers from a smaller displacment 4 or 6cyl turbo) and then there's the reliability factor.
Also, one doesn't need to make 800hp to be competitive (Forsberg proved that with his Titan V8 in his 350Z which barely made 450hp.). Also, don't know if anyone is really making 800hp right now (maybe Sam's sprint car motor in his challenger, but he hasn't exactly been competitive since he's had it.)

Originally Posted by Bebop

I don't know if your agreeing with me or misread what I just posted regarding the entertainment value.

To a point i am agreeing with you on the car setup. I'm sure all teams have set ups for new tires/worn tires. But it takes practice to find that setup.

Originally Posted by Bebop

But I am sorta a pissed off kid thats sad because the sport I once loved is no longer a dog fight but a game of automotive h.o.r.s.e. .

To a point, I see what your saying. I was pissed when they implemented the no passing rule and then frowned upon it (passing) if a driver actually did pass. To me that made the sport less exciting. But as with any motor sport, it evolves. when drifting started to become mainstream, did you honestly believe it would stay completely true to its roots? FD is far from perfect, but there's still not terribly off from where it started.

Originally Posted by Bebop

I think this is more of a challenge to the sponsors to create better products then a punishment.

If you implement this proposed tire rule, then no, its not. its mearly recognizing that some manufactures products are inferior to others and creating a handicap to fill in the gap. How is that challenging manufactures to make better products?

Originally Posted by Bebop

Classes or restructure tandem rules, then we can worry about tire strategy/limitations.

I'd love for a restructure of tandem rules.

Originally Posted by Cavi Mike

I really hope you're joking. The "great products" that are used in almost every sanctioned body on the planet are only used in one place: There.

Sponsoring is just a form of advertisement. That's it. Nothing more, nothing less. If you believe otherwise you're a fool. The only people who get punished are the fans.

The manufacturers were around before drifting and they'll be around when the next fun auto sport shows up and guess what they'll do? They'll do the exact same thing they've done with every sport: Shower drivers with cash to sport their product and tell them WIN WIN WIN or else we'll take that money away. Then the fans get stuck with some BS that doesn't even closely resemble what the whole thing was supposed to be about.

But hey, let's not punish the manufacturers.

Idiot.

What exactly was this sport supposed to be? Your just another "fan" who thinks he's owed everything. Even worse, who has little to no understanding how professional motor sports works. Ya, if it were up to you everyone would be driving Corolla's and 240's huh. Screw putting the sport on the main stream. Big cooperations suck,.. yada yada yada. Stop being such a cry baby.
This has nothing to do with rewarding the manufactures. But i don't see giving out a handicap because one manufacture has a better product than the other. Whether it be sponsorship, or being able to afford the product outright, i don't see it right to create some rule designed to take away that advantage. Some parts are going to work better than others. Thats how its always been and that's how it always will be. Once again i ask.. If you start with tires, then whats next?..

[my 1 88 u]

Why such vitriol towards fan?

I don't dislike the V8 mustangs, Camaros and Corvette. I just have a preference for a car using the power plant it was engineered from factory for. I don't even like the idea the ej257 FRS, or the Japanese and Europeans sticking 2JZs in every thing.