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Front wheel vs. Rear Wheel

This is a discussion on Front wheel vs. Rear Wheel within the NEW to DRIFTING (BEGINNERS) Forum forums, part of the NEW to DRIFTING (BEGINNERS) category; hey, i just got back and i havent chechked the site because i was away. I can see there was ...

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Old 07-19-2004, 08:35 PM   #1
nedinic
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Front wheel vs. Rear Wheel

hey, i just got back and i havent chechked the site because i was away.
I can see there was a couple changes made in the different areas you can go in. The off topic rooms and stuff like that, which is kool.

But anyways iam more interested in GRIP then DRIFT, but i love them both.
For touge how would FWD be? wouldnt you have better handling?

iam not to sure tho,

thanks
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Old 07-19-2004, 10:10 PM   #2
GRiDRaceTech
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Dude.

The fastest racecars in the world are rear-wheel-drive. What does that tell you about rear-wheel-drive? Do some reading and come back, please.
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Old 07-20-2004, 06:28 AM   #3
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shut up did you read what i asked ?
i asked on the touge wouldnt they h ave more traction?
rear wheel cars are easier to slide out then FF
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Old 07-20-2004, 06:42 AM   #4
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Depends on the Touge, the driver, the car, and the weather.

A non-LSD FF could beat a FR with a tight LSD on a really tight road, and blow it away in the rain.

The right platform (EF8, EG6, Integra, GTI, Sentra, Mini) could be a quick touge performer just as a S13, FD, FC, GT-S, or AE86 could.

For racing, distributing the load to all 4 wheels like in FR, MR and AWD cars just makes the most sense. In FF the rears do some of the handling and a little of the braking work, but the fronts do all the steering and all the power application as well as most of the braking and a lot of the handling work.

Grid isn't trying to be a jerk, he really knows his stuff, but he is right.

-MR
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Old 07-20-2004, 09:14 AM   #5
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Nedinic- MR is right, coming off as a jerk wasn't my intention. However, research yields great dividends to knowledge. If you consider asking us at drifting.com to be research, then I shall try to enlighten you.

Please note I'm using a front-wheel-drive car with a typical weight distribtion of 60/40 and a rear-wheel-drive car with a distribution of 50/50.

Front-wheel-drive has its benefits and drawbacks in touge. Uphill, the weight is distributed rearwards, leading to less weight on the driving wheels and, thus an inability to put down power coming out of corners can become a problem... but only on non-LSD-equipped cars. However, this rearward weight distribution helps to even out the handling balance of the car, thus reducing any inherent understeer. Rear-wheel-drive cars will have more weight distributed to the rear of the car, thus increasing rear wheel traction for acceleration, but decreasing front wheel traction for cornering. So, the front-wheel-drive car has the advantage... unless we take braking into consideration. Under braking, the front-wheel-drive car gets some weight back on its front wheels and might understeer, albeit less than on a flat road. The rear-wheel-drive car gains some of its lost front wheel traction and thus regains some of its neutrality. The only place the front-wheel-drive car has an advantage is in braking, as its weight distribution favors the uphill.
Winner: Draw.

Downhill, the negative aspects of front-wheel-drive are maximized with an inexperienced driver and minimized with an experienced driver. The weight distribution on both the front-and rear-wheel-drive cars becomes more front biased. That means harder work for the front tires, especially on the front-wheel-drive car. The novice will understeer into most turns in a front-wheel-drive car, whereas an expert will use the weight distribution change to rotate the car into the turn quickly and without understeer. A rear-wheel-drive car will have less loaded rear wheels, and thus an easier chance of breaking them loose and entering a slide. It will also have a tendency to understeer unless the driver is good enough to use braking, weight transfer, and various other techniques to keep the car in check. In other words, the rear-wheel-drive car has the benefit of a more neutral weight distribution along with the ability to rotate the car using power. The rear-wheel-drive car also has better braking efficiency due to the better weight distribution.
Winner: RWD.

Questions?
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Old 07-20-2004, 10:44 AM   #6
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A properly tuned ITR is a true touge weapon.WIth a touge FF car,you don't want too much power because of wheel spin,but enough to haul.With a properly reinforced chasis,tuned suspension,and a little experince,you could really put a lot of FR drivers to shame.Depends on the situation though.

You want to take care of cooling immediately,upgrading your thermostate,radiator,and fans.Next would be the brakes,upgrading your rotors,calipers,and pads,along with stainless steel brake lines to prevent expansion.Then you want to keep it NA and build it up,your powerband will be in the higher RPMS,or that's what you should be aiming for as the ITR's have room to rev plus your racing,not driving to get some grocerys.Along with that,there should be a 6-point rollcage,a bucket seat and at least a 3-point harness.Your interior should be stripped down-relocating the battery to the back wouldn't be a bad idea eitheir.Then of course you want to take care of suspension,something that's at least 15-16 way adjustable.You'll want to at least get a strut brace with that as well to help distribute the weight,same with the rear.I won't go into detail,but your suspension is going to be your strong point.Of course,get a lightend flywheel and upgrade to a stage 2 clutch and a short throw shifter.An LSD would also be a good upgrade,but ITR's already have one.You could also use some foam injection as well for the chasis,or seam welkd,up to you.

As for tires,you want to run a smaller contact patch in the rear and a larger in the front to promote more neutral handling.This now would give you an advantage over turbo FR cars,especially in windy turns and wet conditions.With proper brake and throttle manipulation,you'll be turning faster than a turbo FR in almost all cases.Throttle and brake control are the key to driving fast.Of course,this is more touge like scenario.It doesn't gurantee a car faster than FR's,but it gurantees an FF that can put to shame a lot of FR's in the hands of a good driver.

As for grip,the ultimate layout is MR no questions asked.They're superior to all of the other drivetrains.The problem is that there are few cheap MR cars.Your best shot would be a nice SW20 MR2.Your also in Canada if my memory serves correct,you should grab an R32 Skyline if you have enough money.16K CDN should get you one in good condtion,or you could grab a GTS-T.
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Old 07-20-2004, 12:18 PM   #7
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Blah blah blah, in the hands of a good driver any car is good blah blah blah

99% of the world is crappy drivers and 1% are proffesionals that CAN drive anything but drive RWD/MR/AWD cars professionally.

D1
NASCAR
F1
GT
RALLY

Even all luxury/exotic cars are RWD at least

FF was invented for cost and efficiency, and people will mod anything they own nothing wrong with that but there are limitations with FF, they havent broke the 7sec qtr mile(yet, they probably will someday). They arent even in the same class as the other drag cars, its a new section.

Autocrossers, and street/drag racers drive FF, but other than that ther is not much. I know there is some sort of series that has both FF and FR in the same races but I dont remeber what it was, it seemed real amateur.
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Old 07-20-2004, 01:30 PM   #8
nedinic
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ok thanks for the replys
sorry to grid race tech

i forgot a site that i went to but it said R32's GTS ar going from 4gs canadian and up.

i forgot the site. Feint can you show me it again, thanks.

thansk
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Old 07-21-2004, 12:46 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by Deluxe_247
Blah blah blah, in the hands of a good driver any car is good blah blah blah

99% of the world is crappy drivers and 1% are proffesionals that CAN drive anything but drive RWD/MR/AWD cars professionally.

D1
NASCAR
F1
GT
RALLY

Even all luxury/exotic cars are RWD at least

FF was invented for cost and efficiency, and people will mod anything they own nothing wrong with that but there are limitations with FF, they havent broke the 7sec qtr mile(yet, they probably will someday). They arent even in the same class as the other drag cars, its a new section.

Autocrossers, and street/drag racers drive FF, but other than that ther is not much. I know there is some sort of series that has both FF and FR in the same races but I dont remeber what it was, it seemed real amateur.

This just shows that most of you dont follow any kind of motorsports with a keen eye. Rally----the motorsport most closely linked to touge and drifting has more FF competitors than just about anything else... The entire Super 1600 series is FF...Most factory cars are AWD versions of FWD cars.

Two FF NEONS!!!! took second and third place overall at Pike's Peak International Hill climb Scca Pro rally this year behind an EVO bu ahead of all of the WRX's and Rhys Millens RWD big HP car.....

FF cars dominate the tight and twisty rallysprints and ralycrosses here in the US and place well in Tarmac, snow, mud and Gravel events in all but the fastest events (long straights that favor high HP not drive configuration).

And thats just rally....there are plenty of road racing series where the FF cars run head to head competitively with FR and AWD...
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Old 07-21-2004, 01:13 PM   #10
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BTCC is one. Acura Integras are consistently romping BMW's in the Speed GT cup. CRX's were pounding it to Porsches in the SCCA in the not-too-distant past.

Drag racing puts FF at a disadvantage just because of the layout and inferior launch ability, but once a car gets rolling and starts to turn a lot of other factors come into play. Ever since the days of the Lotus Elan, FF cars have showed that they can be nimble and quick.

My opinion on the upgrade hierarchy for Touge goes:
1. Safety
2. Tires
3. Cooling/Efficiency
4. Weight
5. Suspension & Chassis
6. Brakes
7. Power
8. Tuning

An ITR can definately hang with comparably priced RWD and AWD cars without any trouble, and can still do so when fully tuned. Why do you think Top Secret has a parking lot with Supras, RX-7's and Skylines alongside the new Integra/RSX?

-MR
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Old 07-23-2004, 09:15 PM   #11
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jboss and mranlet good posts
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