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Grip vs Drift

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Old 01-14-2004, 09:27 AM   #26
Phoen_x
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lol man............stop posting if its Initial D related. And just to let you know Takumi did lose, first was to the white bandana wearing guy from the Emporer/LanEvo Group with the black evo III because the engine blew. And the next defeat was against his father in a Subaru Impreza GC8, 4rth stage in the Manga series.

Next, we do practice drifting. And I practice grip racing other times on my own. If you can't even post with atleast a mature opinon and not being so close minded and so quick to flame, why even post at all? I guess it seems people on the net are sometimes so quick to get offended and just fireback with remarks.
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Old 01-14-2004, 09:14 PM   #27
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i want a comment by Driftxtreem on this subject.
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Old 01-14-2004, 09:41 PM   #28
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grip sucks because nakazato says so in his r32 cus he crashes too much....
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Old 01-14-2004, 10:49 PM   #29
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Hmm yet its suprising that in the manga after Takumi joins The Takahashi bros new team, near the end they call in Nakazato for a favor to race for them, and soon he starts whooping every one's butt and is then known as the Speed King.

I guess as soon as someone mentions "DRIFTING", no matter what Initial D will pop up in their heads.
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Old 01-14-2004, 11:07 PM   #30
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i agree that drift is complimented by grip....you need both to be a fast touge racer. i agree that this thread also has nothing to do with initial D or exhibition drifting. when i go out and practice, for every day i spend drifting, i spend 3-4 days gripping and finding lines and the such. in some cases (i.e. super tight hairpins and 180 degree corners) drift will be quicker because you dont have to slow down so much, like chas already stated. but wide, sweeping corners are quicker when gripped on.....


i like Initial D, dont get me wrong, but it is entertainment. its not something like the drift bible or a viable source of info like that. Takumi does lose to the EVO3 and he doesnt really finish the race against the Usui Sil-eighty, so i take that as a tie. In fact, i think that he would have lost to the EVO3 even if his engine didnt blow.
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Old 01-14-2004, 11:10 PM   #31
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http://c.1asphost.com/CP9A/PD.doc

and for those who had no idea there was a 4th stage. Here's a Manga spoiler that was translated. Enjoy.

What kind of area do you practice at Silver Ghost?
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Old 01-14-2004, 11:17 PM   #32
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check your pm's......
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Old 01-15-2004, 12:58 AM   #33
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Wait, you guys have actually started arguing about a cartoon? WOW...that's just awful.
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Old 01-15-2004, 01:18 AM   #34
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Lol yea it is.
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Old 01-15-2004, 01:57 AM   #35
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Initial D is MY DRIFT BIBLE!
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Old 01-18-2004, 02:07 AM   #36
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its good entertainment, and it sure kicks the SH!T out of F&F.........
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Old 08-23-2004, 06:51 PM   #37
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Grip VS Drift
Uhh. I choose Grip.

I guess if everybody were to go out on some long raceway a good drifter would be preferred for lower-speed corner where grip wouldn't be favorable.

Take a car to the autocross. I guarentee you're going to see extremely good grippers vs. drifters. Drifting in autocross is plain suicidal, cutting away precious seconds in useless wheelspin.

I guess it depends on the car... my car, grip is favorable.
A 400whp car, drift is favorable... you can keep that baby going and never slow down, me.. well I'd have to grab another gear most likely.


Grip VS Drift again.

Oh yeah.

My choice is GRIP!
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Old 08-24-2004, 04:24 PM   #38
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Ryan Hampton, Gridracetech, and I had a good debate about this very subject. I am glad to see that the search button isn't overused.

Basically we agreed that EVER SO SLIGHT of a drift can be beneficial in SOME cases. Here are some examples:

200 mph Indy car at Indianapolis: grip all the way. Any slip angle will kill your downforce, and you'll hit the wall hard. This is essentially common with any car that has downforce and is at highspeed. (interesting note: Subaru countered this effect with their rally cars by putting many strakes underneath the wing so the air goes under it longitudinally, no matter what the slip angle may be. They act like rudders, in a way).

Le Mans GT car: on some slower corners, a slight drift (7 or 8 degrees slip MAXIMUM) on the entry to the corner can be beneficial. The reasoning behind it is that it takes energy to rotate the car, so the more you rotate it before the apex, the straighter your run can be out of the corner (ie. you can grip more on exit to maximise acceleration).

It also depends on tires. A radial slick will be maximised at about 2 or 3 degrees slip. A bias-ply slick will be maximised at about 5 to 7 degrees slip. A DOT-R radial depends from make to make, but they vary from about 3 degrees slip to as much as 7 or 8. A street-compound would be slightly more than than the r-compound DOT tire.

It also depends on cars. If you are racing a RWD GT car with a locked-diff, you NEED to drift the car slightly to be fast, especially on entry. I have also used off-throttle oversteer mid corner (just abrupt lifts of the throttle, and right back on it in an instant) with everything from a Radical SR3 (sports racer from the UK) to a 1979 Trans-Am Corvette with a locked-diff, to help me get through a corner if the car tends to understeer midcorner. Of course, although it would be a technique required in the middle of a race to minimise a loss of time, it's better to fix it with the set-up of the car if you are testing or qualifying.

To be totally honest, experimentation is the key to speed. Try stuff. Try drifting in the entry to a corner. Find out if it works for you. It worked for Senna, but it didn't work for Prost. Both amazing drivers, but they had different techniques. Personally, I have found that I prefer a car that tends to oversteer just a **SLIGHT** amount. We're not talking big smoky drifts, because those will always be slow. Also, work yourself up to your limit, then find out where around the limit you are fastest. Perhaps you tend to be faster right at, or just under the limit. Perhaps you tend to be faster just a little above the limit. Perhaps you're faster oversteering on entry, and gripping totally on exit. Try it all, then make a judgement. All the theory in the world won't answer your questions 100%. It's like arguing about religion. There's just a few too many variables for us to take into account to state a definitive answer. However, I find it fun to think about and incorporate as many variables as I can to come as close as I can to discovering the truth. You'll only ever know if there's a god when you die, and you'll only ever know if drifting is faster if you try.
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Old 08-24-2004, 04:39 PM   #39
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here's a link to the debate...

http://www.drifting.com/forums/showt...5&pagenumber=3

it started off as a debate on heel-and-toeing, then into downshifting mid-drift, then into grip vs. drift. Check the bottom of the page in the link, and then continue onwards through the rest of the pages.
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Old 08-24-2004, 04:58 PM   #40
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dilandu
But Takumi Drifts on every corner
and he always wins
LOL!
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Old 09-07-2004, 09:04 AM   #41
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I love reading stuff like this, you can learn quite a bit.

Quote:
Originally posted by malcolm
You'll only ever know if there's a god when you die, and you'll only ever know if drifting is faster if you try.
Holy crap that was deep! It's even poetic.
B-Wurm
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Old 09-07-2004, 09:35 AM   #42
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actually, I thought it was kinda cheesy myself after I wrote it....... at least someone got a laugh out of it
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Old 09-07-2004, 10:27 AM   #43
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I have similar feelings to Malcom on this, but here's what I have observed while watching many races over the years.

I look to WRC for my theory on it. The drivers have to deal with all kinds of stages, from gravel to tarmac to dirt, all with different traction levels. Sometimes the surface is loose and the corner is tight, requiring them to slide the car by using various techniques so that the car will turn. On high speed corners with a loose surface the slip angle is lower so they don't loose much time. On tarmac events they grip so as not to lose time, unless it's on a slippery surface, it's raining, or the corner is a tight 180. They can also be a bit liberal in what they do (cutting corners, sliding, etc.) due to their advanced electronic 4wd systems. Although WRC cars have aero aides, they are going at speeds where downforce isn't a big part of the equation, so they depend on mechanical grip to turn. That's y you see rally cars sliding more than, say an F1 car.

On a high-downforce racer like the C5R or an F1 car gripping yields the fastest times because the car relies on it's downforce to increase available traction. The cars corner so hard that keeping the car stable and smooth yields faster times; the cars are on such a thin line between grip and spinning that any kind of sliding increases lap times or results in a spin, unless the section is very tight, like S-turns or chicanes, where they will sometimes carry a small slip-angle to turn. (aka areas where the cars have to left-to-right very abruptly, or very tight corners with hard braking zones). I can sometimes see this in F1 chicanes as well. Also high-grip racecars participate in long races where tire wear comes into consideration. Gripping the car generates less heat in the tires, making them last longer, which means less pit stops and more consistent lap times.

Basically, the more cornering force the car has, the quicker it moves through the turn, and the quicker you have to be on the wheel. Some cars you can slide, others you can't.

Compared to racers, street cars are heavy with low-grip tires. Thus the driver has to work hard to extract the best times. In production-racing the drivers will slide the cars a bit to overcome understeer and to get the cars to rotate.

On the togues I'd suggest grip. You will be faster on 99% of the corners (unless it's like Japan with a ton of sharp 180's), have less risk of hurting yourself and others, and it's not as hard on the car or the tires. It all depends on the type of car, type of corner, and how good a driver you are.
That is my .02 on the subject.
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Old 09-07-2004, 04:27 PM   #44
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I have to put my money on grip is faster than drift anytime...

Except in the rare circumstance where you don't have any traction to begin with, grip racing is always faster than drift.

This can be witnessed when racing karts. Try to run the whole track drifting it fallowing the racing line. Then try and fallow the racing line giving it precise grip driving inputs in turns. You will see a drastic difference in times. This is due to maximization of traction circle. You're using the maximum acceleration that your tires will provide you.

Matt.
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Old 09-10-2004, 01:57 PM   #45
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I really love drifting and its true that D1 is not F1 but ... BUT ... drifting is an extrordinary way of racing it doesnt compare with grip. I mean if your drifting on a corner and your oponent is grip runner he could posibly pass you by the inside.
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Old 09-10-2004, 03:55 PM   #46
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For the record, Drifting does not equal racing...

Drifting isn't racing...Drifting is more of a spectator sport. It's one that must be judged by judges or by rules.

The fastest way around a track is by gripping the racing line and riding on the traction circle. I don't care what anyone says about this. Your maximum acceleration is always going to be on that circle.

Drifting is not a sport where time is the way to win. It's about staying tight on your lead in tandem, and SLA on solo runs.

Last edited by Craftsman; 09-10-2004 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 09-10-2004, 04:30 PM   #47
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I think craftsman, tsunami, and malcom all made awesome points. I may be wrong but wasn't drifting adapted to the streets as a way to stay in control of your vehicle when traction may be hindered by bad weather, poor road surfaces, etc.? I thought i read a quote from Keichi Tsuchiya saying he started by sliding the e-brake in the rain because he could choose when to slide and stay in control of it. I don't think any real race driver has ever tried to argue that true drifting was faster than gripping, but when conditions don't allow gripping what do you do to keep the pace up?
-my 2cents-
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Old 09-10-2004, 08:23 PM   #48
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http://www.drifting.com/forums/showt...&threadid=7820
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Old 09-10-2004, 08:31 PM   #49
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this is a difficult subject to discuss in it's entirety, because you have to take into account every single variable. The construction of the tire, the geometry of the suspension, the track surface, and probably 100 other variables that I don't even know about. Of course, there are probably another 1000 variables in each of the vague areas I just used as examples.

Also, what kinds of drifts are we talking about? The classic road racing drift, where it is neither understeer or oversteer, and all four wheels are slipping at maybe a maximum of 2 degrees? Or a big smoky showy drift where it's full opposite lock? Of course, the smoky drift will be slow. As for the four-wheel drift.... well, it's a grey area.

What is "grip?" Whenever I tire turns, it is slipping. It is a rectangular contact patch trying to go in a circle. It needs to slip a little bit. Scirocco made a nice comparison to a car with a locked diff... the inside of the tire is turning at a different radius than the outside, so therefore there has to be some slip (reduced obviously, because the tire flexes a little bit). Basically it's like a car with a locked diff, but on a smaller scale. (that also brings up another point... what about cars with locked diffs? one tire has to slip way more than the other...)

Therefore, when the tire isn't turning, and it is purely longitudinal forces, then grip will be better than slip, because you will have a higher coefficient of friction.

However, when you are turning, it's a whole other kettle of fish. The tires have to slip. Now it's just a matter of how much slip they need to be at their opitmum. half a degree? one degree? five degrees? it all changes with each construction of tire, as well as the aerodynamics of the car (if heavily aero-dependant cars get sideways, they lose a ton of downforce, and therefore lose half their grip, and therefore usually crash. hard.).

We should all know that big smoky drifts are slow. That should be obvious. Unlike the simple rigid blocks we learned about friction with in physics class in highschool, tires flex, and they are suspended from the majority of the mass that they are accelerating (positively, negatively, and in a circular motion as well). Because they flex, there isn't the simple static coefficient of friction and dynamic coefficient. I am pretty damn sure it is an inverse-square type relationship, where the force of friction drops off as the difference in speed between the tire and the surface increases. Also, the surface isn't perfect like in physics class. There are bumps, cracks, etc, etc. These not only affect the tire, but the suspension, and the rest of the mass as well.

Let's just say it's a confusing mess, and the only way to find proof is to go to the track and try for yourself. There isn't much I can say here that I haven't said in other posts...

One of these days, I am going to write up a cohesive article, and send it to one of the mods and see if they want me to post it for a sticky or something... (unless they think I am full of schist....) :P
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Old 09-10-2004, 08:51 PM   #50
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also, the more I think about it, the traction circle is only good for very basic descriptions. When you focus on that line closely, it's not really a defined line, but a bit of a grey area. Sure, it can be used to tell someone the difference between being in a safe grip zone and a huge smoky drift, but it doesn't tell the difference between zero degrees slip, and one degree of slip, and won't tell you which tire needs which slip angle.

It's good for the basics, but not for advanced comparisons.
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