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(FEEDBACK) FORMULA D - Evergreen Speedway - Monroe WA 2012

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Old 07-22-2012, 07:25 PM   #1
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(FEEDBACK) FORMULA D - Evergreen Speedway - Monroe WA 2012

(FEEDBACK) FORMULA D - Evergreen Speedway - Monroe WA 2012

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Old 07-23-2012, 08:59 AM   #2
vvtisupra
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I would like to get conrads explanation for botching the starts and why was daigo told to pace if there wasn't any pacing cone?

Even IF Conrad wasn't playing games there are many factors that play into the unfair advantage.

1. Leading run you are suppose to run a qualifying line.

Daigo was told to pace conrad. Conrad *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored* foots it off the line, daigo has to enter the bank 10-20 mph slower than his qualifying runs. This places the driver in an unfamiliar territory.

2. Botch start
2 times a false start. Daigo was pushing tire life on 2 runs due to his gangster tire speeds on the bank. Add 2 extra hard launches and he's on slicks by the end of the run at which he spins.

2 times false start also heat soaks daigos motor, turbo and intercooler

2 times false starts for no reason makes daigo think wtf. Daigo's english is limited and he wasn;t given any explanation as to why he needs to restart and pace.

3. Is it a false start? I would like to see video. I doubt daigo jumps the line.


other than that. I think judging was its best at this event.

Also, I want to see chelsea run his E46

Last edited by vvtisupra; 07-23-2012 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 07-23-2012, 10:23 AM   #3
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What he said/\. And what was that Aasbo sh*t about? I mean come on already, if the lead car crashes, the chase car should be forgiven for avoiding the crash.
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Old 07-23-2012, 01:29 PM   #4
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I didn't botch any of my starts. On the first start I knew in the first 10 feet that I was going to get smoked into the first turn. The second start was slightly better on his part but still was running away about 40 feet into it. Obviously the third start was acceptable. All three starts were as fast as my car can accelerate in a straight line, no excessive wheel spin or miss shifts.

The lead car isn't supposed to drag race to the first corner and leave the chase car behind. The judges tell us all the time its up to both drivers to get there at the same time. If the chase driver feels that isn't going to happen then we have to be stopped by the cone they put out. Almost all the drivers make sure the chase car is on their door about half way to the first turn before they lay into it. Tony B has 200+ more Hp than me but there were no issues when I ran against him.

Most likely there was a miss understanding in translation of what was expected from Daigo.

I hope you guys can understand why I stopped. If I was 5 car lengths back when we initiate I would be at fault for not being close enough which would have handed the win over to Diago.

-Conrad

(Sorry for any typos, sent on an iPhone)
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Old 07-23-2012, 03:47 PM   #5
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Conrad explained it well.

Although there is no pace cone, the drivers were asked to communicate with each other and enter into the first turn at the same time. They were told in the drivers meeting that if a driver didn't feel that the start was fair and would allow them to enter together, they could stop before that cone on the front straight. We saw Kenny Moen use this against Gushi in the top 32, then Conrad used it twice against Daigo. This was something that was outlined very clearly in the drivers meeting - if the tandem battle already has 3 to 5 car lengths of distance between the cars before the first corner, it's not very interesting to watch. Tandem drifting is about out-drifting your opponent while sideways, not out-gunning your opponent to the first turn.

Overall, this was another great event in Seattle! The crowd was absolutely nuts! There were several good close battles that could have gone OMT or even gone the opposite way that they went had one of the drivers not thrown 2-tires off, but these rules were clearly defined in the drivers meeting and judged consistently thru all top 32 tandems.

The weather was absolutely perfect! not as humid as the East Coast, a nice cool breeze to clear the smoke, you couldn't ask for better conditions.
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Old 07-23-2012, 04:17 PM   #6
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moen did it against gushi because he felt he jump the light.

You can't judge a person's distance based off of a 10 ft jump. Daigo never jumped the light. Infact he let conrad get the jump.

The judges said they would like to see both cars enter at the same time but realised some cars are slower than others thats why they said they wanted to see the chase person sacrafice angle to catch up for proximatey and get docked points rather than being "out of tandem"




Hence the OMT with angelo and yoshioka.

Judges also said they would use the qualifying entry speed as a reference to tandem runs. SO WHATS THE POINT OF PACING THE SLOWER CAR.


If this pacing idea was in effect. what stops someone from going to running a high torque low hp v8 on skinny little tires and just go at a super slow speed?

doesn't make sense.

Noone else was required to PACE the "slower" car.

If this was the case then why have 800 hp nascar motors ? If you want equal speed have everyone drive stock KA s13's on 15's

dumb !

Last edited by vvtisupra; 07-23-2012 at 04:24 PM.
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Old 07-23-2012, 05:22 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by vvtisupra View Post
moen did it against gushi because he felt he jump the light.

You can't judge a person's distance based off of a 10 ft jump. Daigo never jumped the light. Infact he let conrad get the jump.

The judges said they would like to see both cars enter at the same time but realised some cars are slower than others thats why they said they wanted to see the chase person sacrafice angle to catch up for proximatey and get docked points rather than being "out of tandem"

Hence the OMT with angelo and yoshioka.

Judges also said they would use the qualifying entry speed as a reference to tandem runs. SO WHATS THE POINT OF PACING THE SLOWER CAR.


If this pacing idea was in effect. what stops someone from going to running a high torque low hp v8 on skinny little tires and just go at a super slow speed?

doesn't make sense.

Noone else was required to PACE the "slower" car.

If this was the case then why have 800 hp nascar motors ? If you want equal speed have everyone drive stock KA s13's on 15's

dumb !
Yoshioka vs Angelo didn't go OMT. There was a re-run of Yoshioka's lead run which was granted due to a misunderstanding by RS*R and Yoshioka.

Also, it was highlighted on Saturday that sacrificing angle to gain proximity would be considered a deduction, and the chase car will need to gain angle once the proximity has been closed. running shallow angle to stay close to the car in front of you and not re-adding angle would be considered a mistake.

Again, there wasn't a 'pace' cone, but a turnaround cone if you felt that you weren't going to be able to catch up and enter at the same time. The biggest stress in the drivers meeting was for drivers to enter together so that the tandem matchup is even until initiation.
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Old 07-23-2012, 05:38 PM   #8
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Why don't they just have a pace cone since the drivers aren't doing a good enough job of communicating with each other?
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Old 07-23-2012, 06:29 PM   #9
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Why don't they just have a pace cone since the drivers aren't doing a good enough job of communicating with each other?
Not sure why.

I thought it was a pace cone based in the past events. The only thing that is making me agree with all of it is the fact that the drivers were made fully aware of the rules and rule changes going into this round. So they all understood what that cone was, and what they had to do to win and not get a zero. Someone found a loophole in the cone rule, and legitimately applied the rule to his favor. Will they let this happen again? I don't know, but I don't think so. Otherwise this will be happening much more often.

I am not upset about it, and Its not like someone deliberately or accidentally broke an understood rule, then the judges turned a blind eye. Plus, depending on how you look at it, Formula Drift reserves the right to change the rules how they see fit between rounds to improve the show, and yet be fair to the drivers. This is no surprise to the drivers, but equally frustrating I'm sure.

These kinds of situations are what makes a judges job difficult, but the drivers and judges made an understanding of what is expected of them. Its simple black and white, do or die rules. I honestly don't blame them just to make a clear/simple criteria that the judges can back up. Now its not like I'm saying they are stone cold on the rules. Even the line rule with Jeff Jones. They honored a few protests and favored a mutually beneficial ruling on both cases. This is not a perfect sport, but they have got to get some help in solidifying their judging criteria for every round. Now for what I have seen change in Judging from R4 to R5 is a dramatic improvement.

Formula Drift will NEVER satisfy everyone, but looking at it outside the box, its not where it could be either. The changes are to improve the show, and try to be as fair as possible to all drivers. Something happens that they didn't think of so they change it for the next round so it can't be abused again. They are learning how to make it right. I think in year 10, FD is going into some major changes after everything that has happened the last few seasons.

Last edited by Lifer; 07-23-2012 at 06:31 PM.
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Old 07-23-2012, 07:59 PM   #10
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There is no loophole in the "cone rule", It's actually pretty simple. If the chase driver gets punked off the line by the lead driver tryin to run away on the straight before the first turn, the chase driver can stop before the cone in order to get a fair run to the first corner. If Diago would have done it a third time then guess what? I would have stopped again.

It's pretty easy to tell in the first 10 feet if the lead car is already going 5mph faster than you.

The comment about the skinny tires and v8 a few posts ago doesn't make sense. Since the judging begins when you start drifting, the skinny tires would make you tremendously slow around the course and not able to keep up when following. I think it would make more sense to have a car set up with a ton of forward bite so no one can keep up behind you. You could even use it to your advantage in the run up to the first turn but the judges have the "cone rule" in place to not let that happen.

I guess the point I'm trying to get across here is I did only what the judges asked of me. There is no trickery or mind games going on and those people that know me know I would never do that crap. Besides, Daigo is one of the most cool, calm, and collective drivers in the field. Doing a restart for him is nothing.

-Conrad
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Old 07-23-2012, 10:47 PM   #11
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There is no loophole in the "cone rule", It's actually pretty simple. If the chase driver gets punked off the line by the lead driver tryin to run away on the straight before the first turn, the chase driver can stop before the cone in order to get a fair run to the first corner. If Diago would have done it a third time then guess what? I would have stopped again.

It's pretty easy to tell in the first 10 feet if the lead car is already going 5mph faster than you.

The comment about the skinny tires and v8 a few posts ago doesn't make sense. Since the judging begins when you start drifting, the skinny tires would make you tremendously slow around the course and not able to keep up when following. I think it would make more sense to have a car set up with a ton of forward bite so no one can keep up behind you. You could even use it to your advantage in the run up to the first turn but the judges have the "cone rule" in place to not let that happen.

I guess the point I'm trying to get across here is I did only what the judges asked of me. There is no trickery or mind games going on and those people that know me know I would never do that crap. Besides, Daigo is one of the most cool, calm, and collective drivers in the field. Doing a restart for him is nothing.

-Conrad
I'm guessing that is where the confusion lies in. You are saying Daigo jumped to fast from the start twice, and you are right to restart as allowed by the rules. I wouldn't think it would take a third time to get it right, but I'm not driving, so its a minimal point from me. I understand why you restarted based on what you said happen. You have ran against him enough times to know if Daigo is going to rocket away without you into the first corner. The definition of pacing as the fans interpret it, and the rule of pacing the FD judges gave you, and how it was associated with the cone in the past is what is throwing people off. This is the first event I know of it being called the "restart cone". Was this something it has always been? It is just a gentleman's rule to pace to that cone or further? Was Goodin following Aasbo a reasonable pace? It would help with some example to clarify what exactly the lead car is asked to do by the judges. How much of this is subjective? I am thinking at what point is it ok to go full throttle coming into the first turn when the chase car can't match your speed from the line? Thank you for commenting here, and your inside drivers input on this is greatly appreciated.
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Old 07-23-2012, 11:36 PM   #12
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Why would the judges say the sacrifice of angle to gain proximity if both cars are to enter Pacing each other. Let's face it you were playing games. in the video its safe to see ur entry speeds are completely different cant wait to see in car of that run. Your throttle input tells it all. Why would you the "slower car" partial throttle any time off the line?
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Old 07-24-2012, 12:20 AM   #13
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Everyone is so focused on the fact Conrad took advantage of the restart cone, and based on the booing from the fans you'd think Formula D would get rid of it to make their fans happy. The fact of the matter is, as was previously explained, Conrad did nothing wrong and not only that, his actions resulted in by far the best tandem battle of the night. Daigo spinning had nothing to do with the start. Formula Ds highest priority is competitive tandems and if it comes to having a restart for the sake of a awesome tandem the tandem will win every time and I agree with that. Not only that Conrad probably would have won anyway, the judges were not giving alot of OMTs(which I thought they could have, but am glad they are being more definitive) and Conrad's lead run on the bank was insane with the rest of their two runs being comparable (minus the Daigo spin). I think Daigo is a class act for turning around both times(just like he did for Walker in ATL). All in all a great event, saw it in person.
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Old 07-24-2012, 12:22 AM   #14
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Old 07-24-2012, 12:37 AM   #15
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Also, other feedback, I like Ryan Sage giving explanations rather than the actual judges, he is much more clear, concise, and detailed about giving insight into the judges justifications and decisions
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Old 07-24-2012, 03:59 AM   #16
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I like people getting upset when Daigo gets knocked out, it just shows the bias some people have towards him, they really believe he honestly can do no wrong. He was struggling to put in clean runs all weekend.

If the judges said they should enter at the first corner at the same time, which is how it SHOULD be, this isn't drag racing remember, then that is the lead drivers job to ensure that happens, whilst the chase driver is absolutely nailing it behind them. This has been a problem several times with Daigo from what I can see. Funnily enough there are many videos online of Daigo pacing from the line in D1 - in fact they seem to set off in a very relaxed manner, no drag race starts, yet still with blistering entry speeds. There are drivers doing this correctly in FD, node Odi (400hp) vs Essa (700+hp), Odi entering too close to Essa in the top 32 - no blasting away by the lead driver.

To ensure this happens, they should move the cone to be about 5 car lengths in front of the first corner, and give a much larger run up area. There is only really jersey and maybe irwindale where they would struggle for extra space. Then, they have plenty of time to pace up to the first corner and everyone can enter fast.

Also, I can't believe the reason Saito spun is because of 2 extra starts when he has been flat to the floor with 900hp for the entire bank for two runs before hand. That's just clutching at straws. If that is the case Daigo is gunna struggle for tire wear at Irwindale with his current setup. Everyone makes mistakes, this was his. Conrad had a gangsta run anyway.

Question for Conrad if he posts again; Will you be trying to increase your vehicles ability to accelerate/decelerate quickly during drift for next year? It looks like you are really struggling to rapidly close in on people cos it takes so long for your car to respond, same with braking. Tyler's Camaro looks much quicker to respond. I'm not sure the weight brackets you are both in. I believe Diago's car is pretty heavy going by his tire size and his car seems to really pounce when he wants it too, although obviously he has a ridiculous amount of grip in that car.

A piece of feedback for FD is that stupid yellow line business. How can you realistically decide if someone has 2 wheels out when you are viewing replays from the wrong side of the car? Why was there not a FD official sat on the inside of that corner with a cheap Camera zoomed in on the inside of that corner. Call him a linesman or something, he can verify it for the judges. A video was posted of J.Lowe vs JTP and to me it looks very suspect, he was definitely still touching the yellow line. These teams are putting a lot of money on the line and the judges are using a camera angle where they have to just imagine where the inside rear tire was by looking through the car. Moronic. Painted line boundaries are not reliable, I understand the dangers of putting concrete walls on the outside of that corner, but next year it would be nice to see some sort of plastic barrier or foam barrier as per D1/ FD Abu Dhabi. You could also argue that the drivers have just been up against a concrete wall at ~80mph, if there was a concrete barrier on the outside of that corner i'm sure they could manage to stay out of it, especially since FD likes to argue this is the worlds premier drifting series.

Also, I understand there is official stuff going on in the background, but I swear sometimes there are massive gaps (time wise) between lead and chase run and it seems really unnecessary. It seems to be getting worse and things really drag out. This is the same between battles. Cars are waiting on the line for ages and nothing appears to be happening. There must be a way to speed it up, it's not very engaging for the viewer to just be sat there staring at nothing happening in what is an action sport. I understand the judges want to look over the replays and what not but sometimes it seems a bit excessive, watching replays multiple times before making a decision. Surely this could be sped up a little? It seems like the judges NEED to watch the replays several times to make a decision. This should surely only be the case when something excessively wrong or suspect (like brake checking) happens. If this is the case, maybe they should bring some technology to the table. I believe the king of europe series is a feeder series for FD now. They use an automated judging system:

http://www.kingofeurope.net/2012/ind...rift/telemetry

Perhaps this system should be tested for FD to bring some facts to the runs. It states a 10cm accuracy. Obviously the judges could still be used for deciding factors on style or special cases etc, but it seems like this would be a good tool to bring forward the legitimacy of the speed/angle/line aspect of drifting, or at least be a good backup system for the judges to be able to look down and say "driver A's total angle during the run gave this score, whilst driver B's line following precision gave this score..." rather than watching replays endlessly. I'm sure it could be setup to give the correct score "weight" to certain parameters, such as 20% angle, 20% line, 20% speed, 40% proximity. Even aspects such as fast transitions and throttle commitment could be scored. I wonder if sensors attached to the throttle/brakes could help with any entry pacing or brake checking issues. I believe this would also help bring some more "pure motorsport" fans who are perhaps sceptical of a judged sport. I'd be interested in hearing FD's position on a system like this, and other fans as well obviously.

As much as I have posted a few complaints, I definitely enjoyed this round and I believe FD is moving in a great direction. This year has definitely been the best that I have followed yet. I am currently planning a mountain biking holiday to the Canadian west coast to coincide with this round next year so I can watch it in person again (I'm from the UK). It's an aim to get to all of my favourite rounds in the next few years, but unfortunately it's quite an expensive trip just to see some drifting!

Enjoyable round none the less!

Last edited by sidekick; 07-24-2012 at 04:04 AM.
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Old 07-24-2012, 08:43 AM   #17
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^ D1 brought it to the US and used it at Angel Stadium back in 2009. Basically everybody hated it, I'm sure it would garner the same response if Formula D tried to use it.

"Even worse, the Drift Box was brought in. The device is installed on each car, and using GPS it gives the G-force, speed and angle readings to help to determine a more precise score. Understandably, the Japanese themselves brought this over hoping to avoid any favoritism towards from their own judges to their drivers and ironically it caused Nomura Ken to not qualify. Unfortunately the audience hated the Drift Box and it made up too much of the scoring." - (Quoted from Super Street Online)

While I disagree with the judging format again, it was significantly more consistent this round. Unfortunately, I think Formula D has become a prime example of horsepower wars in that the person with more power pulls away immediately once the run begins. Correct me if I'm wrong, but is horsepower a factor in the weight vs. tire width rule? Maybe something could be done so the guys running 400 hp aren't losing a drag race at the start (and subsequently any hopes of close proximity) to 700+ hp cars? Just my thoughts.

In terms of proximity, there are still some flaws in the system, especially seen in the battle between Kado vs Aasbo. Like others have stated, if the lead car messes up, the following car should not be penalized for avoiding a collision, even if that involves straightening out or going off course.

Otherwise, it was a solid event, nice to see some new faces qualifying. I was blown away by the noise and power that Kyle Pollard's SR20 was making. Looking forward to Vegas!

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Old 07-24-2012, 08:44 AM   #18
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Let me reiterate. If you are suppose to mimic a qualifying run 10-20 mph slower you are already at a disadvantage. Timing/line/ speed/gears are all different than what you have been practicing. You are even at a more disadvantage against a high torque/ hp v8 where 4th gear is the only gear required on the bank vs 6 speed turbo where you have to up shift mid bank. The restart cone should only be used for a false start. Now there are gonna be plenty of restarts and slowing down of the flow of the event.


Anyways kiss gangster entries at vegas good bye. If this pace rule stands we won't be seeing any high 90-100 mph entries.

some of the top 5 highest speeds last year was achieved by 350hp cars. That means the 40 + other cars making MORE hp and entering slower.

what are they going to do now make you pace people that are scared to go faster ?

Like i said I don't remember the judges saying the drivers need to pace. It doesn't make sense to slow down competiion. I do remember hearing the judges telling slower cars to sacrifice angle and line to keep proximity.

If the judges wanted to do that they would have moved the starting line up closer towards the bank.

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Old 07-24-2012, 08:57 AM   #19
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Everyone is so focused on the fact Conrad took advantage of the restart cone, and based on the booing from the fans you'd think Formula D would get rid of it to make their fans happy. The fact of the matter is, as was previously explained, Conrad did nothing wrong and not only that, his actions resulted in by far the best tandem battle of the night. Daigo spinning had nothing to do with the start. Formula Ds highest priority is competitive tandems and if it comes to having a restart for the sake of a awesome tandem the tandem will win every time and I agree with that. Not only that Conrad probably would have won anyway, the judges were not giving alot of OMTs(which I thought they could have, but am glad they are being more definitive) and Conrad's lead run on the bank was insane with the rest of their two runs being comparable (minus the Daigo spin). I think Daigo is a class act for turning around both times(just like he did for Walker in ATL). All in all a great event, saw it in person.
I'm glad someone gets it

In New Zealand, they didn't use a pace cone, so people built drag racing machines that could also drift. 9 times out of 10, the tandem battle was decided before the cars initiated into the first corner because 1 car was either 7 to 10 car lengths ahead or was less than a car length ahead. That's exactly what FD is avoiding.

If you set a pace cone 50 or 100 ft out from the start line, then what you effectively do is just slow the cars down as the drivers will just go 20 mph or so til the pace cone, then take off. You need the cars to be full throttle (or close to it) for the majority of the straight away to get up to the proper speed, and the pace cone just let the higher horsepower cars dog it for the 'pace cone area' and then take off. Judges said that the pace cone is effectively the initiation into the first turn, with the option to 'turn around' halfway to that initiation.

Overall, the tandem battles this season have been much more contentious than ever before. The steps FD is going through to make this happen should be praised.
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Old 07-24-2012, 09:41 AM   #20
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so what you are trying to say is formula D wants to have spec cars?

Drag racing machines would mean high grip high torque vehicles.... something with a v8 and big sticky tires and less gears....


you guys don't get it. Anyone can downplay a cars capabilities. By setting up a pace cone you aren't aiding anyones other than a person who is use to driving slow. by doing that you're just regressing the sport. What use to be exciting 100 mph entries will be now slow pace close tandems. So why not get rid of the pace cones and lets go back to 2nd and 3rd gear baby tracks. Hell formula D should use willow springs balcony track. Or instead of the bank on irwindale they should do the inner oval only.


Everyone is fixed over the 1000 + hp daigo claims. People over look the fact that he's only running 265 atr2 tires and has to row through 6 gears. grip is very limited especially when boost comes on so anyone can outdrag him. This is apparent especially with the falken cars with the "measley" 800 hp v8's.


PS if you want to make it fair for the slower car you let the slower car get the jump. This will allow the faster car to catch up and stay familiar with his acceleration/speed/gear


not by altering the timing/speed/distance/gear
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