why do Datsun 510 owners exploit the 240sx engine better than acutal 240 owners?

[gundamzeta]

I've been scrolling down the 510 boards, and I'm seeing some neat stuff--- dual carbs, individual throttle bodies, and NA engines built for 250hp.

I'm really interested in this stuff, and I might buy a 240sx and build a 180hp~200hp NA engine. It seems like it's exactly what I want..


Has anyone else gone this route?

[nissanguy_24]

very few have... if you check out like nico and other 240 forums and suggest what you just did this will be the response..

*scoff scoff* thats stupid its impossible to make make a ka24 get more then like 180 hp at the wheels NA. You need a (insert turbo engine of there choice.. KA-t SR20 or RB20/5) oh yeah and there usualy pretty arragont about there engine choice.. you know cause they have the 1 true way to make power..

personally when im good enough i want a rb25 in my 240sx.. however i think all engines are great and it comes down to personal preference, i've said time and time again im sure its very possible to with some cam and head work get a really nice NA ka24 engine making in the area that you want. It would be great for driting, especialy if you could do it on the cheap, meaning less then a turbo kit or engine swap.

I dont beleive you need ot make huge powers to drift, especialy with a 240sx thats been lightened enough. a broad power band of a built NA ka should be pretty cool.

If i had millions of dollars to waist i'd buy me one of those pipe benders and a dyno and spend days trying to find just the right exhaust and intake sizes to make a KA really scream..

Anyways just a thought. If you deside to go the NA route let us and especialy me know how it goes. And hell do some dyno runs and make the other 240 guys shut up.. Also on this forum a few days ago was a post about a 3 inch exhaust system for a sr20 that made like 12 horse power on a stock KA. deffenately worth looking into.

[raging panda]

You wanna put up some links to show what you're talking about, because I want to see that.

But to answer your question, main reason is they dont have to pass emissions. I can't carb my engine because it has to pass emissions and I wouldn't have a clue as to weather it would pass or not, and then what would I do if it didn't? It's not impossible to make 200 hp N/A from a KA, just no one has done it in a street car. The SCCA(I think its them anyways) have 230hp N/A carb'd KA engines in their race 240s, I would say that's over 200hp. Is it realistic? No, but it can be done. High compression, carbs or ITBs, lots of tuning, cams, head work, all those things could make 200 no problem, it's just cheaper to go turbo. Theres a guy on NICO forum making 17? with mostly bolt ons, don't remember what else, but that equates to almost 200 crank hp. Headwork, custom intake, other stuff could make up that extra 30hp. Mostly people don't do it because they don't have the means, the money, or emissions.

[nissanguy_24]

You make good points, but the problem with KAs period, and this goes for all 240sx, is ALL of the ways to make big power, heavily modified KAs, Turbo KAs, RBs and SRs, and even CA swaps are smog illegal.. Ill dig up that link in a moment..

[gundamzeta]

Originally posted by raging panda
You wanna put up some links to show what you're talking about, because I want to see that.

But to answer your question, main reason is they dont have to pass emissions. I can't carb my engine because it has to pass emissions and I wouldn't have a clue as to weather it would pass or not, and then what would I do if it didn't? It's not impossible to make 200 hp N/A from a KA, just no one has done it in a street car. The SCCA(I think its them anyways) have 230hp N/A carb'd KA engines in their race 240s, I would say that's over 200hp. Is it realistic? No, but it can be done. High compression, carbs or ITBs, lots of tuning, cams, head work, all those things could make 200 no problem, it's just cheaper to go turbo. Theres a guy on NICO forum making 17? with mostly bolt ons, don't remember what else, but that equates to almost 200 crank hp. Headwork, custom intake, other stuff could make up that extra 30hp. Mostly people don't do it because they don't have the means, the money, or emissions.

My 92 frontier truck( KA24E) has carbs on it, and it passes emissions in california. I was thinking that maybe i could swap the factory carb assembly when it came to Smog tests.

I'm not going for 200hp+ at the wheels; I'm aiming for 180-200 at the fly

if works out to be 2000 dollars or under, then I'm going to go for it. I hate turbo's, I hate dealing with turbo lag, Complicated FI systems, complicated piping and vacuum lines, Turbo timers, and all kinds of other garbage..

If I wanted a drag racing monster or if I wanted to even drag race at all, I would have bought a camaro. i'm not trying to impress people with HP numbers, I just want to have fun driving.


I took a look at many of the Japanese Itaken AE86's many of which were street cars and most of them ran Carbs.

[nissanguy_24]

http://forums.freshalloy.com/ubbthre...b=5&o=&fpart=1

check out the dyno results of that exhaust! deffenately a first step to a 180+ hp goal...

oh yeah and that KA has 190+ k on it.. Actualy im reading furthr he talks about 1 other mod he has, but i dont see it mentioned, Im going to assume intake.. and if not, then holy *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored* how much more power will an intake make with an exhaust that large.

[raging panda]

Did that frontier come with carbs stock? Wow, thats pretty cool man. On the exhaust, I don't know how well that would fit on a frontier, but at least you know the KA will take a 3" pipe and get you something like +12hp. I have gone back and forth about turboing or N/A on my KA, turbo is cheaper so thats probably the way I'm going, and it's not all that complicated, but since you already have the carbs, put some high comp pistons, they make cams, headers, and other stuff for 240 KAs except i'm not sure how the header would fit the frontier. 180 crank can definately be achieved just with boltons. Maybe the 240 CAI fits, and the cam.

[gundamzeta]

Originally posted by raging panda
Did that frontier come with carbs stock? Wow, thats pretty cool man. On the exhaust, I don't know how well that would fit on a frontier, but at least you know the KA will take a 3" pipe and get you something like +12hp. I have gone back and forth about turboing or N/A on my KA, turbo is cheaper so thats probably the way I'm going, and it's not all that complicated, but since you already have the carbs, put some high comp pistons, they make cams, headers, and other stuff for 240 KAs except i'm not sure how the header would fit the frontier. 180 crank can definately be achieved just with boltons. Maybe the 240 CAI fits, and the cam.

I was going to use this setup on a 240sx actually... i think that i could just lie and tell the smog center that I got the carbureted engine from a newer frontier.. As long as I have a 89-92 240sx, it might work.

-zeta

['97 S14 SE Turb]

the trucks are Port injected. They don't run a carburator. That poster is mistaken.

I have a '91 Pickup myself, and it's definetly fuel injected.

[Ghost of Duluth]

I was actually thinking that but didn't pipe up cause I was too lazy to look it up. If anyone wants to swap a carbed motor in your car you will have to meet emissions standards for the car you currently own, not the engine you are swapping from. Carbed engines will be hard pressed to meet the standards for a 240. Especially in Cali.

[gundamzeta]

Originally posted by '97 S14 SE Turb
the trucks are Port injected. They don't run a carburator. That poster is mistaken.

I have a '91 Pickup myself, and it's definetly fuel injected.

you know i never really took a good look at it before.

but the lack of a fuel rail, and the top mounted air filter led me to believe that it was carburated. It's my dad's car, and he told me it was carburated.

ah oh well...... swaping carbs to fuel injection around smog season would be just as impractical as swaping engines. I guess my na 240sx is a dream differed

[nissanguy_24]

Well thats the problem all 240sx Owners have, making big power and passing smog... Wether its a turbo, a engine swap or a mean NA setup, none of it will pass smog.

[craziazzmofo66]

most people with 510's only swap the stock KA in their cars and do minor upgrades since the KA cant really get anymore power out and the fact that 140hp for a 510 is quite enough......

Ha ha ha. Alex and his shameless plug for 5zigen. You know he works for 5zigen right nissanguy_24? I've got the exhaust and it's a good exhaust. Looks good, can't see the tip at night (hopefully reduces chances of it getting stolen) and it's damn quiet.

Ever check out the Nissan Motorsports KA24E? I know that thing's supposed to run in gt3 and it's all motor. The parts cost a fortune but looks like it'd be hell on wheels. I think courtesy parts sells the parts needed to make the beast. Not confirmed but I've read that the motor makes ~250 and revs to 9k. Sounds pretty damn sweet to me.

[nissanguy_24]

haha i wasnt aware of that.. man this is a old thread though.

[Feint]

If TRD could pump 230PS out of a 4AGE,then it is very possible to make even more power with that .8 extra liters of displacement.Of course,like previously mentioned,not street legal.

[the riot hero]

tip: if youre on a budget

SOHC pistons raise compression to 12.6:1 on a DOHC KA, have them milled down a bit obviously. that alone with cams and double valve springs and some other work will make over 170hp at the wheels, PROVEN. also extremely responsive.

172 hp at the wheels on extremely mild cams and JWT ECU, cams so mild JWT didnt even bother dialing them into the ECU. i believe alittle port clean up work was done.

[S13/R32]

if ya don't mind me asking this KA engine everyones talking about how simular is it to the Datto 1600 (510) L16 engine with the ohc or are they the same block?
im from Australia and we don't this KA engine, and this engine pops up all the time on this site and everyone says get rid of it.

[Norcalidrifter]

isnt the 510 lighter than the 240? The 510 is compatible with many engines like the f20 s2000 engine

[rasrx7]

Originally posted by S13/R32
if ya don't mind me asking this KA engine everyones talking about how simular is it to the Datto 1600 (510) L16 engine with the ohc or are they the same block?
im from Australia and we don't this KA engine, and this engine pops up all the time on this site and everyone says get rid of it.

the L16 is a different motor from the ka. you're so lucky to not have even seen one. heres a pic of one swapped into a 510. a lot better choice compared to the stock L16 in a 510...but the swaps available are endless like a vg turbo or sr20det. like taking a tricycle and slapping on a r1 motor from a street bike...whew..take alook at the pic and see if u can recognize it and if there are any like it in australia

Originally posted by the riot hero
SOHC pistons raise compression to 12.6:1 on a DOHC KA

nope. It's higher than stock, but it aint 12.6:1. The early version SOHC motors have the 9.1:1 pistons, the later model SOHC motors have the 8.6:1. Put either of the pistons into a DOHC motor and you get 11.6:1 and 11.1:1. You will be able to tell the difference when you actually get the pistons, the early model ones have a step up, while the later model pistons are fairly flat. The earlier model pistons were made for about the first 6 months of the SOHC-in-240's, afterwards, it'll all be the later model pistons.

rarx7, that is a KA24E, aka the sohc motor. The DOHC motors don't have the ribs on the valve cover and have spark plugs that go down directly while the SOHC has the plugs in at the side.

Norcalidrifter, the 510 is lighter than the 240, but it's not by all means more compatable with more motors. They all take alot of work and fabrication to get motors to fit. An example of an easy swap would be the KA into the 510, but even then you have to fabricate new motor mounts, cut apart the oil pan to a rear sump since the location of the oil pan will hit the steering rack.

S13/R32, the L16 is very different from the KA. You're talking about a large difference in displacement, difference in bores/strokes/piston dish volumes, physical height of the motors, and the list goes on. Also probably the easiest to spot difference is EFI on the KA and carbs on the L16.

The KA is not a bad motor at all, just alot of haters. It's beefy, lots of torque, and contrary to what some may say, can take a beating. Personally I would have stuck it out with the SOHC KA if I had the money to build up the NA version that Nissan Motorsports races with, but I don't have the 16k+ to build up something like that. So instead of more down time to rebuild my KA and slap a turbo on it, I just went with an SR low mileage and rebuilt at my leisure. It does really come down to a matter of preference though. I loved the intial torque of the KA, even loaded with 8 people like clowns into my fastback, it still drove like it regularly would which is impressive. I know I would not be able to do that with my SR, but my regrets are lost once the motor's revving up to 3k.

['97 S14 SE Turb]

The KA series is actually a decendent of the L-series motors.

There's a Z-series inbetween the linearage.

The SOHC KA head (cross flow), can fit a L-series block.

Bore center spacing is all the same. Same flywheel diameter (ring gear diameter), etc.

The DOHC KA actually features piston oil squirter for cooling the pistons. Feature pretty much found on turbo motors.

It's bore and stroke is 89mm x 96mm. Rod, center to center, is 6.5" in length. It's a pretty big rod.

The motor was tuned for midrange power, hence lots of peoples complaint about the topend power. But little do those folks, know, a swap in cams will gain topend power. Stock cams are relatively restrictive.

The intake manifold features long runners. Again, for midrange power. It isn't a concern for high rpm turbo motors. Only the cam is the limitation.

The only real weakness, not any perceived weakness, is the half-counterweighted crank shaft. Due to it's long stroke, at high rpm, the crank will see some funky dynamics that can shake itself apart. Most folks don't even get to that rpm range, and a custom full counterweighted crank can solve that issue.

The NASPORT series, which many cars uses the Carb SOHC KA are the ones using Nissan Motorsport USA's parts. They use the even longer 6.7" center to center carillo rods. And surprisingly, they use the stock crank, that gets cleaned up, and run these motors up to 8k rpm. These are the motors that are making 300+bhp normally aspirated.

[rusty_dime]

Ok maybe I'm chiming in late but there is a reason why people swap sr20det's over building KA's. KA's take money to build and tune as others have pointed out they were designed for mid range power. If you want 300 hp NA from a ka your going to spend close to if not more money than you would buying an sr20det. Srs have 205 to 230 hp right out of the box and 300hp is just a mater of boost increase. I personally like both motors but I know why people are into the sr's they are already geared towards performance. I like the low end torque of the KA it's real fun in my dime but I would like to see what an sr is all about. Another option is the turbo KA which again will probably cost more than an sr to setup unless you fab it yourself. The sr option just seems easier if your shooting for anything over 250bhp but I'm going to look into this 300 hp NA KA I've never heard of that it sounds cool.

well for the amount of money people put in to get the sr20det installed, running properly, and this and that, you can turbo a ka for about the same price and almost always the KA will have more torque than the SR. NA power is expensive even on the SR20DE from the Q's or J's. The nismo N2 head costing alone over 5k, aftermarket cams running 1-1.5k for the pair, not to mention the solid pivots that must be used, and so on. No one ever said NA power came cheap. If you're going to make a price comparison between the KA and the SR, do it comparing turbo to turbo, not NA to turbo cuz the turbo will always cost less to get the same amount of power, but is typically less reliable, has more weight and complexity due to the extra piping, extra oil and coolant lines, and is more difficult to diagnose when trouble does occur.

[naru]

What about supercharging a KA? Superchargers don't have that "turbo lag" of turbo'd cars and more or less has a "NA" feel. How long has the 350z been out? like a year? and there is already a supercharger kit out for the car... what about KA's? anyone know someone w/ supercharged KA???