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5.0 vs 2nd gen F-Body

This is a discussion on 5.0 vs 2nd gen F-Body within the TECH Discussion Forum forums, part of the TECH Discussion category; Which of these (5.0, 2nd Gen F-Body) do you guys think would make the best economical drifter? With a 5.0 ...

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Old 03-23-2004, 06:29 PM   #1
Tsunami
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5.0 vs 2nd gen F-Body

Which of these (5.0, 2nd Gen F-Body) do you guys think would make the best economical drifter? With a 5.0 you have power and huge aftermarket support but have to invest in better control arms suspension pieces to get good handling and braking. Now with a 2nd Gen F-Body you get a tourqe arm to control the rear axle, plus better handling, but then you have to deal with the 200hp 305, and fewer parts to choose from. I'm a Ford guy but I think the F-Body may be easier in the long run because you already have handling from the factory, plus it seems that there are more nice Z's and 'Birds than 5.0s. Whatdya you guys think?
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Old 03-23-2004, 06:39 PM   #2
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i would say 2nd gen F body because DOMESTICS ARE NOT my style.
no offense to anyoene who likes em


peace
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Old 03-23-2004, 09:03 PM   #3
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get what you reall like hotchkis makes some truely killer and i maean killer parts for both even the local rednecks know a good thing when they see it well if it involes the mulletmobile get some summit racing and jegs catalogs and go through them alot to look for parts and get a few mustang and f body mags you might be able to get them from the library and just spend some off time researching them if nothing else you can get to be like me and mouth off on them around the unwashed heathen masses EG the rednecks
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Old 03-24-2004, 01:22 AM   #4
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i'd say go with mustang. I used to have a 305 with T5 BW tranny and it ain't that strong. you can upgrade to a T56 tranny and rearends but it cost alot.
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Old 03-24-2004, 01:36 AM   #5
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the Ford 5.0 will kick the *Censored**Censored**Censored**Censored* out of a chevy 305(dog motor 165hp).
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Old 03-25-2004, 05:58 AM   #6
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FORD = Fix Or Repair Daily

Chevy = Power and Poise

Im a mustang hater sorry =)

Chevy rulez and I also Love the formula firebirds esp.

But the Corvette Z06 is the king of the streets.
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Old 03-28-2004, 12:40 PM   #7
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I'm impartial, but for drifting I would say that F-body wins hands down.

SUre a 5.0 would oblitorate the 305 any day in straigfht line, but as far as I'm concerned handling is more important than power any day. The higher line of GM motors like LS's and LT's make enormous amounts of power as well and can be swapped in without much trouble. Even if you went as far as to get a crate motor you wouldn't be spending that much more than you would on lowering and suspension on the Fox. Even with the stock motor you could seriousally improve pewrformance with bolt-ons and weight reduction. CRAZY_Hawaiian is the resident F-body guru here and he could telly uo all about increasing power and handling and what costs you'd be looking at...

Car Craft has an article about buying low-buck performance, and both of the cars you mentoined are in there. I'd suggest you check it out at the bookstore or PM me and I'll scan it for you.

-MR
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Old 03-28-2004, 08:43 PM   #8
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I'd say it depends on what options the 2nd Gen F-Body has. The base model 2nd gen stuff might not be any better than the standard fox body suspension stuff. So if the only 2nd gens you can find come with base model stuff, the stang might be a better choice. When checking out the 2nd gens, look for the RPO codes. These are usually found in the glove box on a sticker (will have like 50 3 digit codes). Make sure the VIN on the sticker matches the VIN of the car. The RPO's you want are:

F41 (Performance suspension)
G80 (Positraction aka LSD)
J50 (the good brakes)
ZQ9 (good rear end gearing)

or best of all

Z28 (includes all of the above)
WS6 (only found on 1979 Firebirds, but best suspension)

If you want more info on the 2nd gen''s, here is a pretty good information website: http://www.nastyz28.com/2gcog/stegmiller/ but they seem to leave out the firebirds. Here's another good website with alot of good chassis info: http://www.nastyz28.com/camaro/zsusp.html and finally, probably the most usefull info on setting up a 2nd gen to handle (as in SCCA, etc) http://racingarticles.com/article_racing-9.html

I'm not really a 2nd gen guy, so I dont know the full capabilities of the 2nd gen platform. From what I've seen, the Mustang has a much larger aftermarket support as far as road racing related suspension pieces and weight reduction. The Mustang is a lot lighter from the factory and probably has better weight balance in stock form. I'm sure the 2nd gens also have aftermarket suspension support, but I dont know where to find the stuff.

On a side note, my mentor (helping me build my drift car) will soon be building a 2nd gen drift car. His name is Brian and he used to race dirt track (not to mentioned he's a very knowledgeable mechanic and fabricator). He really likes the new sport of drifting. His car is a 1970 Firebird with the F41 suspension. He'll be running a mild 350 (for now) with the M22 tranny and a 12 bolt rearend. His car is solid!!
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Old 03-29-2004, 02:54 AM   #9
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Do you know that crap off the top of your head?

That's rediculous!

-MR
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Old 03-29-2004, 03:31 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by JunpoweR
FORD = Fix Or Repair Daily

Chevy = Power and Poise

Im a mustang hater sorry =)

Chevy rulez and I also Love the formula firebirds esp.

But the Corvette Z06 is the king of the streets.
Nah.Ford=Found On Road Dead
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Old 03-29-2004, 05:29 AM   #11
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I'm sort of shame to admit it, but I do have quite a few of the RPO's from all generations Camaro's memorized. I dont know why I do that kind of stuff, but whenever I came across usefull codes doing any reading, I end up remembering it. Wish that stuff happened when I was back in HighSchool doing my Spanish Homework! Doh! But all that info I posted was verified on those websites I posted, which I found in about 4 minutes using google. So I'm not really THAT knowledgeable, I just read too much stuff and remember what to search for. I looked through all the 2nd gen stuff when looking for info for my mentor's 70 Firebird. Just like some have said, google is the answer to every question in the world. For example, if you type in 'camaros shoudnt drift' it will tell you 'Did you mean: camaros should drift' and ever since I saw that I've been a believer. Hahah, but nah seriously, knowing the RPO's kicks butt because you can instantly spot the cars for sale with the best options. I've settled for base model cars before and I figgure why settle for less? Do some research and find the best bang for your buck. I say thats the only way I could have gotten my budget project driftable for a total investment of around $3300 inc the car. The stock FE2 suspension (one level above F41) drifts great. And the stock motor puts down over 300 ft/lbs of torque. Look how much smoke it makes in my sig!! Weee!! hehehe
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Old 03-29-2004, 02:36 PM   #12
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mranlet definietly scan that arcticle to me if ya want. I'm always reading stuff like that. And thanks for the chassis codes C.H. I'll remember that. I've got 2 main questions.

1. How much do you have to invest in the F-Body's suspension to get it driftable. The Mustang takes alot of suspension parts to make up for it's geometry problems and it seems like the F-Body has better factory geometry.
2. Do you know what year the 2nd gens got the LT1?

C.H. I really hope you can get your Project Domestic Drifter info up, cause I'm really interested what you and revimit have done to bring the F-Body's suspension to driftable spec. I'm interested in doing the most with the least cash so when I crash it I won't be out thousands of dollars

P.S. CH your Red F-body with the Mesh rims is the best lookin 2nd gen I ever seen. That could definitely get into HOTROD magazine.
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Old 03-29-2004, 02:52 PM   #13
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Mustangs have always outhandled Camaros from the factory; my 5.0s have outrun more IROCs through my canyons than Usama has hidey holes. I don't possibly see how that elongated nose and stubby rear are conducive to drifting. With the 2nd gen F-Body the problem that I would see ( beside that nose/tail ratio thing) is sway. All these things can be adjusted, yes. From my experience, the majoriy of 5.0s that you'll be looking at already have suspension work done anyways and usually carry KONi adjustables as well as that good ol' Ford rearend. Now, this is the 1st car site I've been to that I don't have to deal with the Ford/Chevy wars, so I'm not trying to start that. Just relating my opinions..........
BTW - WILL ANYONE PLAY AUTO MODELLISTA ONLINE WITH ME PLEEEEASE!!!!!
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Old 03-29-2004, 10:29 PM   #14
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Oh I think we might be confused a bit. The 2nd Gen F-Bodies were from 1970 to 1981. The 3rd Gen F-Bodies are from 1982-1992. All of my Camaro's are 3rd gen's (2 89's and 1 91). If you were talking about 3rd Gen's (82-92 F-Bodies), then I can provide you with a bit more information. You will want an 87-92 3rd gen because it'll probably have TPI (and stock roller cam), 4 wheels discs became an option, and the pulley's were converted to serpentine. Look for any top model version, so either Z28's or IROC-Z's and you will probably end up with some good options. Definately get a car with the TPI intake (LB9 or L98) and avoid the L03 TBI. 4 wheel discs is always a plus, though the handbrake works better on the drum brake rearends. Check the RPO's for FE2 to spot the performance factory suspension. And although very rare, the 1LE option was the factory race prepped version, so if you spot that definately get it. You should also check all RS cars for the B4C RPO which was the police car RPO. These cars came with alot of 1LE parts (inc the good brakes), so they would make great drift cars (although about as rare as the 1LE's). Any of these cars (top model with FE2, 1LE, or B4C) would make great drift cars in completely stock form. Base model suspension will need some modification to get it driftable (check the pics of my old stock maroon red 89 RS in the website gallery to see the body roll on stock base model suspension). If you check out the club website, and click on the budget project link you can see a small write-up I did on the IROC budget project. The car is a completely stock IROC with the FE2 suspension, and the only mod being an aftermarket panhard bar. You can see lots of pics of the car drifting in the gallery (its the green car in my sig). Total investment was around $3300 and the car was track ready (this also included a paintjob which you dont really need). Its definately possible to drift a 3rd gen on a budget, and the stock stuff is good enough to drift if you find a car with the right options. If you want to see what mods Revlimit and I have done to our 3rd Gen's, check out the driver profiles on the website. We included a bunch of mod's we've done (or are still doing) to our track cars. These are not things you need to drift (stock can get it done), but these things will make the car better suited for drifting in our opinions. I think your first mod for a drift Camaro should be a set of Subframe Connectors.

The LT1 motors (or Gen II SBC's) came in the 93-97 4th Gen F-Bodies and 93-97 Corvettes. These can be swapped into the 3rd Gen F-Bodies, but honestly I think you'll do fine with the stock 3rd Gen Stuff (Gen 1 SBC Engines). The TPI is a torque design, and thats pretty much what you need to induce oversteer with throttle. So the TPI intakes are good choices for drifting IMO, although if you dont want to stick with EFI, a Carb will unlock ALOT of power.

As for the whole Chevy vs Ford thing, I think it depends on personal preferance. Either platform has cars that will drift well, and I've tried both brands. Both of them can be good drift platforms.

P.S. Thanks for the props on my 91Z. I recently got my hands on a set of 3rd gen specific twin turbo manifolds, so hopefully I can get my turbo swap going pretty soon (the supercharger will end up on the drift car hehe).

Last edited by CrazyHawaiian; 03-29-2004 at 10:32 PM.
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Old 03-30-2004, 03:13 PM   #15
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Yeah I meant 3rd gen like yours. It sounds like I'd be looking at a TPI Z28 then to get all the goodies?

It looks right now that the F-Body has alittle better balance of power/handling/brakes from the factory than the Mustang does, because the 5.0 never had rear discs from the factory, plus the F-Bodies don't have the snap oversteer like the Mustangs. The main advantage the 5.0 has to me is that I know the aftermarket for the car reasonably well due to reading about it for nearly 10 years. But I'll have to do more research before I make my decision.

Btw I am looking forward to seein that Z28 done. The overall look with the deep-dish mesh wheels really gives it modern stance, plus the simple candy paint is money on that car. Add a big front mount or billet grille and V-mount intercooler. Maybe even do the fireball trick with the exhasut. A car with both JDM AND V8 attitude. Now how cool is that!!

Keep up the good work CH and please get the forums up on PowerSlideways.com!!

P.S. 400hp on the Camaroku!!!! Gotta love it!!
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Old 03-31-2004, 10:22 AM   #16
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And I thought imports were confusing...

-MR
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Old 03-31-2004, 12:21 PM   #17
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not a 2nd gen (or is it?) but...

excuse me while i clean up my mess...
just imagine this as a drifter instead of drag...
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Old 03-31-2004, 07:13 PM   #18
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Thats a 3rd gen. If the GFX are stock, then its a 91-92 RS model. Here is a pic of REVLIMIT's ex drift camaro, which was originally a 91 RS:



His new version (different chassis shell) is going to be a different color with some other stuff done (and 400hp!!). I think REVLIMIT has done a really good job on the appearance mods on his drift car. Nobody makes kits for our Camaros, so he makes his own kits from scratch. And I've seen three totally different versions now, really shows his creativity and style.

For me though, I think those stock 91-92 GFX look alright, so thats what I'm gonna run for now. Bought a 91-92 GFX set from REVLIMIT a while ago and they ended up on the black 89 RS. And recently got another 91-92 GFX set for pretty cheap (200) that will end up on the green 89 IROC. In the future I'm considering completely changing the front end of my track car to a dirt style setup (better in case I crash). Here's a pic of my 91 Z28 that came with those 91-92 GFX stock (that grill gonna end up on the track car).

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Old 04-01-2004, 04:09 AM   #19
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I figure if you're basing your decision off of what you've got to work with stock, just remember either way you're gonna have to deal with replacing things eventually. Sure the mustang may start off worse but we've yet to see what they're truly capable of. However, unless the other guy at Drift Days who used to bring his (wrecked it) finishes rebuilding it, we'll see in around 3/4 months what a 5.0 is capable of on the drift field. just gimme a lil time! lol
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Old 04-01-2004, 04:17 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally posted by CrazyHawaiian
I recently got my hands on a set of 3rd gen specific twin turbo manifolds, so hopefully I can get my turbo swap going pretty soon (the supercharger will end up on the drift car hehe).
uh oh....those didn't happen to come from a certain firebird did they? you evil, evil man. damn I envy you!!
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Old 04-01-2004, 05:14 AM   #21
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I'm honestly not sure what type of F-Body they came off of. I bought them from this guy in Chicago. He had them on his mostly stock 350 with a set of generic T04E turbo's (61 trim) running 8psi and put down 475 rwhp. The manifolds are from the original Gale Banks TT kits made from 82-84. I'm planning to run them on a 377ci SBC (destroked 400ci) with a pair of the new HKS T04Z turbo's (undecided trim) at 15 psi (most the ECU can handle for now). I'm gunning for 650 rwhp with a 3,000 to 8,000 powerband. Madness!!

Sometimes I wish I gave my old SVO some more time before giving it up. That car was so much fun on the mountain. But its still in the family, and I still got permission to drift it, so maybe one day I'll get to play with that car again.
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Old 04-01-2004, 06:43 PM   #22
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CH I am kinda worried about your 377TT. Don't get me wrong the thought of HKS turbines on an SBC gives me goosebumps, but I wonder why you're powerband is going so high (I'm thinkin Wangan machine here) with that much boost. You know your stuff so I'll assume you've got a forged crank, rods and pistons in there, and hopefully a stud girdle (I don't know if you have a 2 or 4 bolt main block). I don't know if you're using an LT1 or TPI SBC but I'd say with the TPI it'd be hard to get that much power with the stock heads. I know where you coming from, use the turbo's to make the power and not the motor, I'm just kinda concerned about the longevity of it and the I-hate-traffic powerband. Personally I'd do an LT1 383 with 6500 rpm redline and get the proper electronics so I could dial up the power on demand. But I know you know your stuff so I have a feeling your'e 3rd gen is gonna be in good hands.

p.s. You said the grille is going on your drifter, does that mean I get to see a big fmic on the front of that sweet 91?

Keep that SVO. They're rare Mustangs. That little 2.3 can make 1000hp with enough Esslinger parts. Not to mention you got a couple of guys here that really know that chassis.
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Old 04-02-2004, 04:22 AM   #23
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Yeah I'm putting a lot of time and thought into it. I dont even have the motor yet, so it will be a while before this project is completed. If you wanna read all my ideas and stuff (and debates with people about it lol), check out this thread here. But yeah the car will have a FMIC pretty soon (hehe!), long before the motor gets done (gonna use the FMIC w/ my supercharger for now). I gotta stop thinking about this stuff man!! I'm really behind schedule with my drift car, so I need to give it some love! No turbo, no!! hahahha.

Yeah those SVO's are sweet. I did a bunch of mods to mine before I gave it up, 35# injectors, 'PE' ECM, ported E6 Manifolds, 3" downpipe, 3" exhaust, Volvo FMIC, Upgraded boost controller (Bosch Style), and was getting ready to make my own t3/t4 wannabe hybrid (mix match parts from the stock SVO T3 and a stock Buick T-type turbo) but it never happened. We never dyno'd, but I guesstimate just a little under 300rwhp @ 22psi w/ the stock turbo.

The real cool thing to me is that the DIY tuning tools I bought to tune my GMC Syclone ECM I'm gonna be swapping into the 91Z will also work with the Ford stuff. So later on down the road when the car gets a real T3/T4 hybrid turbo I can re-tune for really cheap. But currently the car is down with a blown headgasket (booo!) Too much 22psi runs I guess hahahah. The car ended up in my moms boyfriends hands, so the deal is I help him build / tune it and I can drift it when its complete (woohoo!).
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Old 04-02-2004, 03:48 PM   #24
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CH I got some ideas for the drifter and the SVO. First if you guys are having trouble with fuel starvation or cutting out in the drift you may want to look into Holley's truck avenger carb. It's designed not to cut out at extreme angles, so it may keep the fuel from sloshing during the choku's.
http://www.holley.com/HiOctn/ProdLin...C/0-90670.html

If you're thinking about fuel injection Edelbrock makes a conversion kit that has a 4bbl throttle body, manifold, fuel rails ecu, harness, and all the supporting hardware. It can support over 450hp depending on the system. You guys could get all the benifits of fuel injection without having to rewire the whole car. The peak power would be down a bit but it'll make more torque over a broader range and flatten the powerband.

For that SVO Esslinger has a new replacement head for the 2.3L. It saves 25lbs and bolts right on. If ya got the money I'd say get one of these while ya got the heads off. I'd keep the stock head if it's any good, they're hard to find. From people I've talked to you should be able to make about 325-350hp at the wheel with 25lbs of boost and the stock internals. I dunno how much hp the stock bottom end can hold but they say they're pretty stout.

As far as the 91Z28 I'd say go with a 400 LT1. I'd say go with TT's and around 6500rpm redline for good torque. Get some good internals and electronics so you could run about 5-10 psi tooling around town and dial it up to about 20-25 to teach those pesky Supras a lesson. As far as the intercooler I'd use the FMIC if it'd give enough cooling to both the IC and radiator. That way you wouldn't have to cut holes in that gorgeous hood. But you could open up the top portion of the bumper to allow more airflow like on the WRC Subbie and Jun supra. I'm still not sure how much the L98 would do with it's heads, but I think you may be able to swap the Vortec heads from a truck on there and see some improvements. Here's a little something you could top the L98's off with. Holley's stealth ram intake.
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Old 04-02-2004, 05:54 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally posted by Tsunami
Here's a little something you could top the L98's off with. Holley's stealth ram intake.
Remind me to ask you questions when time comes to build the valvetrain on the 5.0 I'm looking into. I've got ideas but would like to pick your brain sometime. You and Bosozoku.
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