Are coilovers really a must on a drift car?

[Bustadouglass]

I was thinking... I know coilovers are the big thing but what happened to using good ol' race springs and shocks? I mean if i were to get the proper rate springs (prolly like 7kg front and 5kg rear) and some good adjustable shocks suchas konis, wouldnt i still have a pretty competative setup? Not to mention the fact that it would be cheaper!

I used this setup on an SCCA race car a few years back and whupped the competition.

Correct me if im wrong but i think i could do just as well with something like this.

And if anybody actually went this route then feel free to put i your 2cents.

[Norcalidrifter]

Coilovers all the way! Tein is coming out with drifting coils and I heard its for hardcore racers and it handles great! GO GET IT

[nissanguy_24]

Originally posted by Norcalidrifter
Coilovers all the way! Tein is coming out with drifting coils and I heard its for hardcore racers and it handles great! GO GET IT

With all due respect you didnt answer his question.


Bustadouglass If you already know what kind of rates ect.. you need, and you know what your doing, which it seems you do, then i dont see why that kind of setup wouldnt work.

There really isnt anything different about a drifting setup then a normal racing setup, Though from what i understand drifters tend to dial in alittle more oversteer. That kind of thing. I'f you've been racing though you probably have a good grapse of that already and know exactly what you want.

Good luck and tell how well your set up works.

[raging panda]

no, you are right. If you have a good combination of spring/shocks, it is a cheap alternative and will do well. Everyone gets coilovers because thats what the D1 drivers get. Honestly, coilovers are great for their adjusability, from camber, height and dampening (assuming you have coilovers that have all these features) but most people won't use all the adjustments. If you take drifting seriously, eventually you will end up using all those settings, but a spring/shock is a good starting setup, and for those who wont play with the settings.

[Bustadouglass]

Ive been drifting for about a year now on top of my prior SCCA experience so i pretty much know the setup and how i want it to ride. And i completly agree with you raging panda, I think that the whole coilover thing as a monkey see, monkey do situation. I feel that a spring/shock setup can be just as adjustable as coilovers with acception to ride height. Alls you need is camber plates and adjustable shocks (and knowledge of the parts and proper specs).

I just wanted to know what other ppls thougts were on the subject.


BTW, if anyone has a good NON-COILOVER setup that they think is just as good as a coilover setup let me know!

[mranlet]

For a beginner coilovers are not nescessarily the best thing. The TEIN HE's also seem to be really bouncy when used with a stiff-sidewalled tire and not really the best thing for when you have the car on the hairy edge of control...

I have a traditional damper/spring setup on my car but have entered the arena of needing more adjustability. Even adjustable dampers from good companies like Tockico and Koni can't match the versatility and "dial-in-ability" of coilovers. Being able to easily adjust ride height is also a wonderful feature, especially when complicated suspension geometries are involved (as in S13 rear link, etc).

I agree with you Panda that a lot of people get coilovers because that's what the pro's use, but at the same time there's good reason that the pro's use them - because they are better than spring/damper combination.

If you already have a set of nice adjustable dampers and springs that you are comfortable with, you could always just get a coilover perch for your setup if you desire more adjustability as well...

I hope this helps.

-MR

['97 S14 SE Turb]

Yup, not a need.

As for suspension setup, I disagree with an above statement stating drift cars are set up with oversteer.

From what I've seen and experienced first hand, you want the car to have a bit of understeer.

You can actually stay on the power for longer in a drift with the front tires pushing a bit.

If the car is set to oversteer, you would need to start throttle controlling the slide. With understeer set in, you can actually stay longer on throttle to actually accelerate in the drift.

Good example is Nomuken/Blitz R34. That car is set up to understeer. That allows Nomuken to stay on the throttle for longer.

[nissanguy_24]

Originally posted by '97 S14 SE Turb
Yup, not a need.

As for suspension setup, I disagree with an above statement stating drift cars are set up with oversteer.

From what I've seen and experienced first hand, you want the car to have a bit of understeer.

You can actually stay on the power for longer in a drift with the front tires pushing a bit.

If the car is set to oversteer, you would need to start throttle controlling the slide. With understeer set in, you can actually stay longer on throttle to actually accelerate in the drift.

Good example is Nomuken/Blitz R34. That car is set up to understeer. That allows Nomuken to stay on the throttle for longer.

hmm Interesting theory. I was referring to guys in the grass roots level around my skill level. Just starting to play with suspension setups and such. The pros and more advanced guys are obviously more advanced then that.

Perhaps thats something that seperates guys at my level from the more advanced guys.

['97 S14 SE Turb]

Yes, it's a defining line.

I've tested various wheels/tires configuration.

From what I've found, doing more flashy snappy type drifts, running a staggard setup works for me. 235 width front, 255 width back.

For highspeed, low slip angle drifting, both staggard and same sized works for me.

One thing that I do notice with this sort of setup is the amount of front tire wear I'm starting to see.

I can get the front tires pretty darn hot drifting on a road course.

In a parking lot type event, the front's wear rate was about 40% of the rear's rate.

(Not talking about corner/shoulder wear, but even across the tread).

But YMMV. The setup I run fits what I want out of drifting. Pulling a fast lap. So, that right there, I'm already using a mixture of grip/drift technique.

[Bustadouglass]

Ive been trying to peice together the setup i will be getting but so far the stiffest springs i could find are the RS*R race springs but unfurtunatly they still dont seem to be neer comprable to the rates used on most coilovers. Their rates are in the ballpark of 5kg front and 3.5kg rear, where as the average rates on teins are 7kg front and 5kg rear. Although... the RS*R sponsored S14 and S15 use them so they cant be too bad? Either way...Does anybody know of some good stiff springs for an s14?

[CrazyHawaiian]

Not needed but definately cool. I run staggered tire sizes too.

[balmo]

a must? no, you dont need coilovers to drift. i run same width f/r tires.

[soultron]

My budget is low, and i can't get springs from britain cheaply, so I plan on running coil springs from a bigger application, like the
chevy camaro or ford mustang. Even stock springs will be stiffer than mine, aftermarkets would be too stiff prolly. Combined with adjustable shocks and a slighty drop in hieght, and boom.

[raging panda]

that is an issue with springs, there aren't readily available stiff springs. Like you said, the rsr are the stiffest, and they are softer than the softest coilovers that ive seen. My buddy is running s-tech springs and agx shocks, pretty stiff ride, but not as stiff as my old apexi WS, and they were pretty soft coilovers. You might need to get some custom rolled springs, but I'm not sure you will find any shocks that can handle such a stiff spring, but nobody has really pushed the agx far enough.

[CrazyHawaiian]

You can get them if you know where to look. Ground Control gets all their springs from Suspension Spring Specialists (these are what I run). They will custom make and OD spring, any height, and any linear rate. They will probably be able to make springs for your application, only problem being the specs of the spring will not match up with how you determine the specs on your spring. So you'll need to do the math and convert the specs. For example, I run 700 pounds front, 150 pounds rear. Different than the 7K or 8K types of specs I usually see for the imports. If you can figgure out how to convert the specs so you can explain in their term what you want, you can get ANY type of spring you want.

[turbo23]

coilovers are excellent if your looking to do daily driving, with some drifting, and autox/road race. But if you are running the car for a certain style then a spring shock combo would be fine as long as u know what u want

[raging panda]

you kinda got it backwards man, a spring/shock combo will do better on the street because even though coilovers are adjustable, they are not adjustable enough to make it tolerable on the street (depending on your pain threshold). Spring shocks will never be stiff enough to be a bother on the street.

[CrazyHawaiian]

I dont run coilovers because my chassis type was not designed to do so, but I'd imagine they would be great for the street. You could adjust the spring rate and dampening for comfortable ride on the street or stiff for the track. As long as you dont change ride height you'll retain your alignment. Even better with something like the EDFC where you dont even have to get out of the car. Spring / Dampener setups only allow adjustable dampening, so you're stuck with a stiff spring rate on the street. Because of this I've leared that it is entirely possible to run too stiff of a linear spring on the street. But I guess it really depends on how good your local streets are. My local streets suck, very uneven surfaces. I've heard that some of the roads on the mainland US are very well maintained and would ride smooth as glass. My stock front springs were 540#. I tried 900# and it was insane on the street. Now I'm going with 700# and I'm way happier.

[mranlet]

The reason that you don't see springs and coilovers with similar rates is that they're designed differently to do 2 different things.

Coilovers are intended mostly for race application. The spring rates and dampening in coilovers would be way too hard for street driving, especially in areas like the Northeast where plowing and snow takes a toll on road condition. The notion that a stiffer suspension will handle better is only true to a certian extent - stiff suspension will supress body roll and help the tire stay in contact with the road, but too stiff a suspension can cause inside tires to lift, prevent tires from achieving maximum contact time with the road, introduce higher levels of stress into the frame, and all sorts of other bad things.

Street springs and dampers (shocks) are a good chioce for the car that is a daily driver and only taken to the track occasionally. They offer a much more livable ride and more consistent tire contact, especially over rough surfaces.

The adjustable coilovers might be alright for a car that sees double duty as long as they are kept softer for the street and stiffer for the track. A wonderful benefit to coilovers is their ability to almsot instantly change the demeanor of the car - if you want more oversteer, simply turn up the dampening in the rear. More understeer? Turn up the front. For smoother surfaces, turn up both and for rougher surfaces turn down both. You can also change ride height by raising or lowering all 4 coilover perch rings or compensate for an imbalanced car by raising individual ones

Crazy - what are you refering to about changing rates without changing ride height? From what I understand you can't change the rate of a spring and by raising or lowering the perch ring you'll raise or lower the car unless donw one or 2 at a time. Do you mean set the shocks to softer dampening?

-MR

[raging panda]

yea, you cant really change the spring rates without replacing the actual spring itself. Thats not easy. Good coilovers have dual spring perches where you move the spring up and down both on bottom and top to keep the spring and strut in full range of motion if you raise or lower the car.

[mranlet]

Is there something magical that you do only in Hawaii to change spring rates?

That would be a cool trick...

-MR

[Bustadouglass]

CrazyHawaiian, how much did it cost you to get some custom springs made, and how long did it take? Oh, and i coulda sworn that groundcontrol uses Eibach springs? Plus i was always under the impression that the "sleeve coilover" things were really cheap; but if they work for you and i can get the exact rated springs i need then i may very well go with them!

[mranlet]

You can get cheap sleves, but one of coilovers' defining characteristics is having an adjustable perch for the spring.

Custom rolled springs is mucho $$$...

-MR

[CrazyHawaiian]

I was under the impression that you can modify the spring rate without modifying the ride height on those 25 way adjustable coilover setups. If I'm wrong, sorry about saying that. I am not very knowledgable when it comes to coilovers (I've never owned or used them).

I was refering to the conversion of spring rates because for domestics we use lb/in but everyone else uses kg/mm. I have no idea what the conversion is. My custom springs were between $55 and $60 and they were shipped within 5 days. The fronts are Eibach linear rate springs, and the rears are Suspension Spring Specialists linear rate springs. Sorry about that, forgot the fronts were Eibachs. I dont think Ground Control lists all the available SSS springs, but they do list the Eibach ones here. I do run adjustable spring pertches and they work good. I think they are overpriced from Ground Control.

[mranlet]

You can adjust dampening on coilovers but you're stuck with what you've got in terms of spring rates.

If those really were custom-made springs you cot a whopping heck of a deal, but I'd bet that they were units that were simply not listed in the conventional catalog. When I wanted custom springs for my Legacy I think Eibach (or was it H&R, can't remember) wanted something like $750 for the set or something wild like that.

Did the adjustable perches just fit right on to your shocks (if you have the shock-in-the-spring design, and if so, what kind of shocks) or did you have to modify them?

You supply so much good info I think it's only fair to mes sup once in a while

-MR