The barely coherent ramblings of a NJ Noob

[FiveLiterBeater]

(The following is probably barely if at all understandable, I've had two hours of sleep in as many days, but here goes)

Greetings Folks,
I've got the worst feeling I'm gonna be on the receiving end of hating, but hey, here we go anyway!

I'm the proud(?) new owner of a beat-looking 88 mustang GT. Yes yes, I know, I did look at picking up something a bit more of the norm (S12-14, FC, Conquest, MkIII Supra (MA70?), etc) but in the end got the stang because, well, i was raised on them, it's what my friends and I (Moreso them than I) know, and honestly, there's not enough domestic drifters out there, I wanted something a bit different.

I'll spare you the rest of the story and get straight to the point where I use you for your knowledge. Except I'm suddenly drawing a blank, my meories seems to have wandered off somewhere, but as for what I can remember...

Since the things a big ol' hefty V-8, it's going the be more than a little front heavy, now to remedy this I plan to A)Rip out the AC since I can't be bothered to convert it anyway. B) Fiberglass hood up front. C) Relocate the battery to the trunk, which will not only take some weight off the front, but put it in the rear. I've got a list with some other things i need to do, but it's up in NJ, and I'm in NC visiting some family so it's not quite accessable.

The car doesn't even have a posi unit with it right now, so I'm going to just swap out the whole rear. (it's cheaper, really when you factor in labor) Now I know a guy with an arseload of mustang parts, (He's wrecked 6 of them, oh, he's 25) and he has a low mileage rear w/ posi unit for $400. The question is should I go with the posi, or some other type of diff? And where would I find this? I see posi units for sale everywhere, but not much else.

Are there any Jersey drift events? At all? I can never seem to find anything, there was sposed to be something at the SEMA show last month, but noone wanted to go...

And... jersey insurance man... WTF. I haven't been insured since i moved back out here almost three years ago, so everyone's trying to cornhole me on insurance (One quote: 3400 a year! Just liability!) Anyone a decent place for it?

And... and... that's the point where my brain coughs sputters, and dies. Thanks a lot for ANY help you guys can give me, greatly appreciated and all that jazz.
-Kyle

[nissanguy_24]

Welcome to the board man, we need some mustang drifters.

I dont know enough about the posi differentials or mustang aftermarket differentials to tell you what to go for. However any type of limited slip rear will deffenately help. I imagine the mustang wont have a problem making power, Do whatever you can to get the weight down and even it out for the time being. Aside from that just work on your skills and have fun.

Im sure theres a few guys on here with a couple more answers for you.

[FiveLiterBeater]

Thanks a lot Nissanguy, it's a pleasent surprise to not have been on the receiving end of page upon page of flaming hatefulness. It shouldnt really be a surprise though, everyone seems to love CrazyHawaiin, and he drifts a camaro. (Ive been lurking on these forums for a few months now actually) But yeah, i think ill be alright for power right now (When I bought it had a full exhaust system and some suspension goodies) which brings up another question, is there a point at which to much power, namely torque, becomes a problem?
But uh yeah, aside form that, we're just trying our best to lighten it up, and even it out, when I get back home I'll steal my friends digi cam and post some pics. It's not pretty... no, really... really... not pretty.

[nissanguy_24]

Originally posted by FiveLiterBeater
Thanks a lot Nissanguy, it's a pleasent surprise to not have been on the receiving end of page upon page of flaming hatefulness. It shouldnt really be a surprise though, everyone seems to love CrazyHawaiin, and he drifts a camaro. (Ive been lurking on these forums for a few months now actually) But yeah, i think ill be alright for power right now (When I bought it had a full exhaust system and some suspension goodies) which brings up another question, is there a point at which to much power, namely torque, becomes a problem?
But uh yeah, aside form that, we're just trying our best to lighten it up, and even it out, when I get back home I'll steal my friends digi cam and post some pics. It's not pretty... no, really... really... not pretty.

The only problem with adding more power is control. Your goal is to control your car better. Everytime you add more power your adding more to control. Now power really isnt a problem. You just want to make sue you can control it. Forexample you wouldnt want to build a 427 twin turbo setup pushing 900 horse power and then with out any experience try to drive, let alone drift it right?

Power is your friend, And as long as you can control then there really isnt "too much" However just about any stock v8 will have plenty of power for drifting. Powerwise, once you can break the rear end loose with just the throttle then you have enough to intiate any of the power techniques in drifting. The rest is all weight trasnfer, breaking, hand breaking, and other various combinations of drift that require mostly experience and skill.

And dont worry about flamage for driving a 'stang. We like to think that drifters are beyond the whole "import vs domestic" crap, not mention stupid rivalrys in both areas.


perhaps not every kid whos seen initial d has evolved to that stage yet.. but most of us have. Drifters are just car enthusiest with an extreme interest in car control. other things come with that, touge type stuff, or as its sometimes called out here, canyon carving. Most drifters are interested in that because its part of the whole scene. Of course other guys are heavy into the whole JDM type scene.. once again because drifting came from there. But overall most drifters are just interested in cars and driving and having fun.


Anyways man. Welcome to the board and have a good time.

[CrazyHawaiian]

Yeah sounds good! Since its already kind of 'beat up' I think its perfect for a drift car. I remember the first time I crashed my Camaro .. I laughed! hahahaha! It was already kinda of beat up so it didnt matter. Yeah that 302 has plenty of power, so I wouldnt really worry about modding it. I left my Camaro motor stock and its more than enough for drifting. If you do have a hard time breaking the rear lose, maybe the tires might be too wide. Your rear tire sizes should be matched to your power level. Right now my car is pushing around 200hp/300tq to the wheels so I use tires between 225 and 245, sometimes going a little smaller or wider depending on what type of free tires I find. When I step up to the 300hp/400tq level I think 245's are the smallest tire I'm gonna run, but only time will tell. As for the rearend, $400 sounds good if its the 8.8 inch and it was just recently rebuilt. The price for used rearends at the Chevy camp is between $50 and $200, so $400 would be a little steep. If it comes with good disc brakes then it might be worth it (does the car have drums now?). As for the type of posi, hmm depends on what you are willing to put up with. For drifting I would highly recommend a locked rear because it will lock on both acceleration and de-acceleration (like a 2 way LSD), but its not really daily driver friendly. The regular OEM style posi units lock on acceleration (like a 1.5 way LSD) and work good for daily driving. On my Green Camaro that I also drive on the street I use a regular OEM posi unit (1.5 LSD equivalent), but for my track only Black Camaro I use a locker on the rear (2 way LSD equivalent). The extreme budget way to go is weld the gears, but it wont last long (and will ruin the rearend), so I wouldnt really recommend it. For the weight reduction, I would recommend tubular front suspension components and aluminum heads. Serious weight reduction sucks because its so expensive. On my Budget car I just left everything stock and I deal with the heavier nose. If you're going to relocate the battery you might wanna put it right behind the seats instead of in the trunk. Putting it in the trunk will make the front/rear weight distribution better, but you shouldnt solve that problem by adding more weight to either end. If you can, move all the weight you can move to the center of the car and lighten everything else on either end. Just some stuff I learned from reading a lot of books and trying it myself. Good luck!! Hope this helped!

[FiveLiterBeater]

Hooray! More info than I could have hoped for! Seriously, very helpful.
But yeah, the reason I chose the beat car over the pristine notchback is so when i inevitably bang it up I won't feel to bad, lol. Yeah, right now it's got the drums, I'm not sure whether I'm going to do the disc conversion any time soon cuz, well, it's a lot of money...
The sad part is, it's going to be even longer before i can start with the modding and learning, like I said, I hvaen't been insured for about three years, and Jersey has the most expensive insurance in the country I'm told, I need to move down here to NC, it's so much nicer...
Oh, one thing, you were talking about locker rears before, now my onlt experience with lockers was a friend of mines 11 second (N/A) firebird GTA street car. he said something about having a locker in it, and if he took a turn to hard under acceleration, there was a good chance he'd lose it. (By 'it' he meant the entire rear)
Alright, I've got to cut this off a bit quick, the cousins are calling, incessantly... (I'm never having kids)

Again man, thanks a whole lot.

[mranlet]

I beg to differ with you on a few points crazy:

A locked differential is fine for daily driving if ytou a dedicated mofo!

As for weight reduction -
-Start with removing the A/C if you can stand the heat in NJ. I have no A/C in my CRX in Tampa and it gets hot as hell...
-Somebody must make a fiberglass hood for your Fox Mustang, and I know that there are also fiberglass bumpers/air dams available from places like jegs.com or summitracing.com. If you have trouble finding something, let me know and I might be able to make you one!
-You can either drill out or plasma-cut sections out of your front bumper support (the support probably weighs 40+lbs), but it will reduce the government-regulated safety of the car (if you care about that)
-Moving the battery is never a bad idea, but if you're militant about weight like I am, you might want to either buy a tractor battery with a high CCA (cold crankinc amps) rating or get the 3-coil optima battery (same as the 6-coil but half as big). Adding long cable and a battery box can add several pounds to the total weight of the car.
-Look around for extra heaps of wiring - if your car is the base model then there's going to be loads of wiring for things that were never installed like power windows, mirrors, seats, etc. I know that in 4th F-bodies you can take out 40lbs of wiring alone!
-Depending on how hardcore you want to be, you can also remove the capet, windshield washer resevior and jets, horn, stereo, window cranks (replaced with an aluminum bar to hold up the window), windows (lexan), dashboard, heater matrix, door panels, hood latch (use hood pins), hood hinges (use more hood pins), and power mirrors (if any).
-Replaicing anything with aluminum pieces over the heavy steel is always good. Don't use aluminum for heat sheilding though, it's specific heat is very low and will transfer easily.

Welcome to the board and I hope this helps!

-MR

[AtroXR7]

ive been wanting to run a 84 stang as a drift car, its an unpopular year among mustang fans and looks more the part for the scene. Few things you need to look into.

First, is your 5.0 an HO? If not, most of the cars hear are probly more powerfull than yours. 5.0 has become an awesome engine to build... but in stock form... they're lacking hardcore. On the good side, they're dirt cheap to build up and get replacement parts for.

You should have an 8.8 rear end, I picked up a hardly used traction lok *ford's limited slip* and a set of 3.73 gears for $150 shipped. That packages also came with a set of 5 lug axles I have no use for... but theire only worth like $20 on ebay so theres not much point in trying to sell em. You can buy spools and and true lockers but anyone that drives a mustang on a road course will tell you the limited slip is the only way to go.

I didnt catch if you have a manual or auto. but either way, aluminum driveshaft, smaller torque converter or aluminum flywheel. reducing weight on the drivetrain is worth ten times removing weight on the car. Like others have said, anything and everything is available in fiberglass for a fox body. As far as moving the battery, yeah, move it over the right rear tire, the car has a heavier front than rear and with you in the driver seat, all its gonna do is balance things out a bit better, and get the 6 coil red top optima, I love mine.

Suspension... you have almost as many options as a civic, except most companies offer race proven parts, not just knockoffs. Get tubular everything, A arms, lower control arms, traction bars, big anti-sway bars, strut tower bars. Its all out there, go pick up a copy of Muscle Mustangs and Fast Fords, you'll have more bracing to choose from than you can shake a stick at. and guess what, almost all of it is race tested and you dont have to do anything custom.

Now for the engine... power is all in the heads buddy. And a MAF conversion is the way to go if its not running that already. Remember even if its more expensive, carberators are not ment to go sideways, go fuel injection and mass air flow is the best way to do that.

[CrazyHawaiian]

I dunno about that man. EFI is cool and all, but Carb is also pretty cool. Revlimits drift Camaro is carb'd, and so is my track only black Camaro. If you set them up right then carb's cars can slide fine. Do you know how many AE86's are carb'd and still slide? I've seen quite a few myself and it tripped me out, but I guess it makes sense. Revlimits carb'd car does not seem to have any problems from what I've seen. Only junk part is if the car spins and stalls, then you accidentally flood the carb while trying to restart and it wont start for a minute or two (this can hold up the track). I cant say for my black car though because I'm still welding a cage together (no track time yet) but I'm thinking the Carb'd setup will do just fine. I'm not saying carb'd is the best way to go or anything, but sometimes its a good choice. Maybe its a different story for you Ford guys (I know nothing about building small block fords), but I would imagine that even the stock 5.0 is enough to drift. I know my crappy old L03 engine rated 175hp/230tq at the crank was good enough, and I doubt it can get much worse than that hahahaha.

As for the rear, yeah I guess if you're willing to put up with a locker for daily driving then it'll be OK. When you take turns slowly during normal driving expect a lot of weird looks. hahaha. The Limited Slips are good for grip but the locker will cause you to induce oversteer just by lifting off the throttle at speed (as it locks on de-acceleration) and can make for some interesting drifting.

And I wouldnt really recommend fiberglass panels for weight reduction because if you crash they they get ruined and they are very expensive to replace. I'd do stuff like aluminum heads or tubular suspension parts first, stuff that is more likely to survive a crash (just my observation after seeing multiple hoods, fenders, and front clips replaced on Revlimits Camaro). I mean, if you can get a deal then go for it (like my free glass hood woohoo), but I would be scared to drift a car with thousands of my hard earned $$ into fiberglass panels and stuff.

But hey this stuff I'm saying is just from my experiences and observations, by no means the 100% correct way to do things. A lot of people have different ideas on what works, so go with what you think is the best and tell us what happens. Nothing would be learned if everyone did the same stuff. When I did get my 85 Mustang SVO to drift those few times (when I had the correct tires for drifting) it was great. I'm not sure if all the pre 87's had the same type of suspension setup, but the SVO seemed pretty good even with old deteriorating suspension parts. I just wish I had not made the mistake of too grippy rear tires (and then the mistake of blaming the results on the car, not my tune). Wish I still had that car man ... it was FUN!!

[AtroXR7]

CH, ya know you're probly right now that i think about it, sliding doesnt put nearly the same gforce on a car that gripping does. And if you've run carbs with the mangi action ive seen you do in old vids, im sure they'll hold out for most everything. It just scares me how easily you can lean out an engine with a carb and some side gforce. Thats why circle track cars are always running pig rich and those that arent, tend to blow engines. I always used to get annoyed how rich cars run at the tracks out here till someone pointed out the gforce carb problem... of course I felt pretty dumb then.

Personally Im a huge fan of fiberglass cause and joe shmo can repair it and do an ok job, you dont need a slide hammer and stud welder and dont have to spend forever using epoxy adhesive on busted plastic *gfx experience there* I really wouldnt mind seeing some non structural parts made with urethane... flimsy and flexible, but you really cant hurt it. I freaked out the first time a guy i know who's car I idolized just kicked his gfx and they just bounced back like a rubbermaid wastebasket.

[mranlet]

For as cheap as fiberglass parts are for domestics, the 4 hours you could spend cutting ribs off of your hood and pulling it back when it gets mushed could be spend doing somehting else more important and you can just buy a replacement hood.

If there are spots that you know are going to be in danger of breaking (like splitters, etc) you can just add your own few layers of 'glass and have a thicker, more durable part. Hell, boat hulls will stay intact when people run aground or hit rocks and stuff - bumpers stay surprisingly intact even in fairly heavy impacts.

-MR

-MR

[Chachi]

If you are in Central Jersey, you have no reason not to be attending some drift events here! Go to www.dgtrials.com for info, we got all sorts of cars running at these events, come and practice...beats getting into trouble on the streets

[FiveLiterBeater]

OMG!! I totally forgot about DGTrials! I found the website one day! Put the site in my favs, and prmptly forgot about it! Thank you so much for reminding me!

Now if we can relax a moment. I want to thank everybody for all their help, its all been saved, printed out, and read through numerous times, it's a shame that I can't get some seattime, so all I can do is try to cram as much textbook drifting knowledge in in as possible. I'd much rather the practical.

AtroXR7: LOL, I've always rather liked the four-eyes stangs! And they definitely look like a drift car. And the car is a High Output and its manual, so I definitely plan on doing the driveshaft. About the Mass air though, My cars an 88, they didnt start with Mass-Air from the factory until 89, and the conversion, i dunno, kinda expensive, I dunno if I'm gonna do it. Unless the system, from the four cylinders would bolt up right with just a bit of work.

Oh, and this is probably obvious, but I dont know, whats really the difference between posi (Or traction-lok) and LSD? Is there even a difference.

Alright, thanks a lot again everyone. One more question. Does anyone ever do ride-alongs like they do at Autocross events? I'd friggin' die if I could do that. (LOL, anyone ever see that Hashiriya DVD? That woman's reaction was great after riding with Komatsu!!! (I think it was Komatsu)

I'm going to stop now...

[AtroXR7]

LSD - Limited Slip Differential (general term) - Traction Lok (Ford) - Positraction/Posi (Chevy)

all the same thing, just different words. It's a "differential" that uses clutch plates to "posi"tively "lock" the differential to "limit slip" in the rear end to gain more "traction". There I used most of the words for it I know in one sentence... hope it all makes sense to ya know... and you outta be able to understand why they have the names used.

There are also things like a spool... which is a solid rear end and doesnt use spider gears. and lockers which actually lock the rear end completely, not just limiting its slip with clutch action.

[mudduck3006]

where rare you at in nc if you are close by charlotte or rockingham they have ford race nights at the rock and they got a giant swap meet plus sonny patton in hamlet has the most righteous salvage yard in the world he is in hamlet and be seriously prepared to be defestrenated for the insurance in jersey i mean my geanpop has no tickets and his insurance is more there in jersey than my brothers with a nearly revoked pays here rock the mustang hard dude god knows i did when me and my friend bought one when we were 14

[Ziptyed]

at the dgtrials event in tampa some people got to do ride alongs, but I don't know if that was just a promotional thing or not.

[FiveLiterBeater]

Mudduck: I was in Raleigh, no idea where in relation that is to Charlotte though. I'm down there occasionally (sp?) visiting my family, I'll have to try to hit up one of the race nights, swap meets own, but not as much as REAL salvage yards. (the ones around here suck, you have to be accompanied at all times) As for insurance, I finally found something halfway decent, 1700/yr, now I jsut need to find money for the down payment, after that, it's time to rock the stang, thanks bud.

Ziptyed: I finally got to a DG event last wednesday, at raceway park at least they don't let you for liability reasons or whatever. Not cool. The event was great, I sucked though, having gone for two days with no sleep I was loud and obnoxious as all hell. Oh well, hopefully Ill be better behaved this friday, lol.

[spiritofFC3s]

dude once i get my fc running again i'll be down there all the time. just waiting for my rebuild kit to come in.

[mranlet]

At E-town you're not allowed to stick your hand out of the car anymore either, but at least it's a place to run on a regular basis...

Anywhere that people can do ride alongs, they will happen - it's a good way to learn and is cool as hell as well.

-MR

[svtxchinoy]

Cool, good to know I'm not alone in the Mustang owners club, lolz. If your looking for a good LSD, I've heard the Auburn Pro and Torsen T2R would work well. Theres tons of parts for your car. I've seen some carbon fiber hoods also if your looking to go down that route too. My Cobra is a bit of a porker up front, so i'm planning to do the hood swap, battery relocate, swap out the seats and do the rear seat delete. But, this is gonna be a long process for me since thats all MONEY, of which I dont have a lot of =P Anyways, I'm up in NY, let me know when you find a good place to practice. I've been using abandoned parking lots and would like to meet other people around here whose interested.

[FiveLiterBeater]

damn, an 03 Cobra? Sick dude! Those are the blown ones, right? (I'm not to familiar with the 4th gen mustangs, all i really know are the supercharged cobras respond sickeningly well to bolt ons, and the 98+ looks better than the earlier models) As far as the LSD goes I just picked up a rebuilt stock unit + a set of 3.55 gears off ebay for $140(+25 shipping) I was looking into doing the aftermarket thing, but, money is a bit of a constraint right now seeing as I think I'm about to get thrown out of my friends house which has nice low rent, and probably won't really need to spring for something better unless the stock unit manages to somehow hold me back. (I'm tired, it took me three minutes to type that damned sentence...) I still haven't decided if I'm going to rip out the rear seats or not yet, seeing as that would mean even BIGGER perventage of the weight would be up front, but there's no real use for them since I'm going to be doing a six point cage which'll make them unusable and just about make up for their weight. As for the carbon fiber hoods, for the fox body at least the only company I've seen that manufactures them is APC (ugh ) which from what I'm told is just that a cheap knockoff.
As far as practice spots go, my friend's mom owns an abandoned hotel somewhere in upstate NY which I wanna go take a look at if I ever get off my butt to do so. He said it has a pretty big paved area near it but isn't sure what condition it's in. If it looks ok that'd be great cuz I could do whatever I want and the popo couldn't touch me. If it looks good it'd be a pretty awesome place to practice amd wtuff. Of course, once I attain some semblance of skill I want to start hitting some DGtrials events and stuff.

PS I usually sound rather... simple when I post. i only manage to do it when I get home from work at about 8/9AM, so I'm not really in control of my meager mental facilities. Forgive the rambling.

-Kyle


Oh yeah, is the 4.6 motor made out of iron or aluminum like the LS1s?

[svtxchinoy]

Lolz, all good bro. Yeah, these came with the Eaton M112 S/C right out of the factory. Probably the reason why I got it, a factory S/C with factory warranty =P The GT's and Mach's have the aluminum block, but the Cobra's came with the Iron block. Some say because it handled the boost better and that the aluminum block couldn't take it. Others said it was a way to cut costs on the car. Thats a pretty good deal on the LSD you got. I'm planning to just upgrade mine as well (if I ever get cash for it) I've seen a lot of C/F hoods around for the fox bodies. I just cant remember where right now (brains a bit fried) Yeah, APC stuff isn't the greatest out there, its cheap, but not great. That would be great if your friends mom's hotel had a nice parking lot. If I had access to that, I'd prolly turn into a autox/drift session kinda place. I've been using the abandoned Macy's parking lot here, which is a pretty big open spaced lot but has some cracks in it so its not the smoothest place. I just got subframe connectors for my car so that should stiffen the chassis a lot. I heard these particular ones, made from Hans Racecraft, is over engineered and makes the handling improve like a Porsche =P SFC's would be a good way to go since roll cages cost a little bundle to get and install. Anyways, good to see a fellow stanger here. Hope the domestic drifting ups the ante soon.