Streched Tires; (What does this do?)

Ziptyed · 07-30-2004, 08:26 PM

I've noticed that a lot of Trueno(i like it better than saying 86) owners have streched smaller tires over there rims, does this do anything to the characteristics of the car, or increase uneven wear, or is it merely cosmetic?

REVLIMIT · 07-30-2004, 08:55 PM

Having a strecthed tire (to some degree) increases response and reduces roll over of the tire. It's not only Hachis that do this but almost all drift cars strecth their tires. I've noticed a difference in my car...I used to run 275 wide tires in the front but later switched over to 245. The tires are on a 9" rim...I noticed that the front tires did seem more responsive and while drifting it was more controllable.

GRiDRaceTech · 07-30-2004, 11:24 PM

Stretched tires are the poor man's way of increasing tire rigidity. It decreases contact patch and increases the possiblity of uneven wear due to uneven heat dissipation. The decreased contact patch makes the tire easier to break free, but may increase the tendency of the tire to burst or wear through prematurely.

REVLIMIT- The 275s were on the bare minimum of wheel width. The tread width is rated at around 11" for a 275. The 245s are on the maximum of wheel width, but still have a tread section width of about 9.7". The 275s were underused and the car was overtired. The 245s are about right for the Camaro's size and weight and made for a good match, thus the increase in response and control.

BooZTT · 07-31-2004, 03:19 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by GRiDRaceTech
[B]Stretched tires are the poor man's way of increasing tire rigidity. It decreases contact patch and increases the possiblity of uneven wear due to uneven heat dissipation. The decreased contact patch makes the tire easier to break free, but may increase the tendency of the tire to burst or wear through prematurely.

In a sense you are correct, but I would agree more with REVLIMIT. I personally run "hipari" (stretched) tire myself..and for MOST of us that can't afford new tires every weekend..we use what we can get and this is THE BEST way to go about it without spending $$$$. And what you stated is more true for road racing..NOT for drifting. Back in Japan almost everyone I knew drifting had hipari tire...the pros we know as well. So believe what you want to..but I speak from experience as does REVLIMIT. Having the tire stretched increases sidewall stiffness dramatically. which means there is no play (roll-over) in the tire to throw off your control. (I run 235's on a 9" and 215's on an 8")

Edited for better tact.

Ziptyed · 07-31-2004, 08:06 AM

These are "hipari" right?

GRiDRaceTech · 07-31-2004, 10:28 AM

Quote:

[i]So GRiDRaceTech...sorry mister rich guy.[/B]

Rich? Not quite.
Contact patch applies anytime you're driving a car, not just during road racing.

Ziptyed- Yes.

BooZTT · 07-31-2004, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GRiDRaceTech
Contact patch applies anytime you're driving a car, not just during road racing.

You're argueing about something we don't care about. We do this with our tires because it gives better feel and response while drifting and as an added bonus we can run deeper offsets getting more dish and still being allowed to clear the wheel wells with our cars slammed to the ground. This isn't even an arguement. What I stated is what we do and why we do it. Thousands upon thousands of people do exactly what we do in Japan and have for years..pros and beginners alike.

And Ziptyed yes that is exactly hipari tire.

Edited for better tact.

CrazyHawaiian · 07-31-2004, 09:16 PM

I dont know why you consider stretching tires to be for poor people only. Every time a pro team has come to drift here in Hawaii I see some of them running stretched tires (Signal, DX, etc). Not all, but yes some of them do. Now I know all these guys are sponsored, so the guys running the stretched tires must be doing it for other reasons than cost. I say its a personal preferance, possibly experimentation, but has nothing to do with being rich or poor. I've been messing with stretched tires in the rear and I think it helps. No I'm not sponsored, and yes I run free tires, but regardless, I like the way it feels. It reduces the sidewall flex and makes the tires more responsive. When I compare 245/50/16's on a 16x8 to 225/50/16's on the same rim, the smaller width stretched tire was better for me. Maybe thats just because of my type of car, or my style, but there it is. I run 42psi and have no problems with uneven tread wear or premature damage.

I think the reason the 245's work better for Chris in the front is because of his style. Like me he does a lot of 4 wheel slides. I think for a car that had more steering angle and a different style of drifting the bigger tires like 275's would be good.

Ghost of Duluth · 07-31-2004, 09:52 PM

I think it attracts the girls, and everyone knows thats what Drifting is all about.

CrazyHawaiian · 07-31-2004, 10:21 PM

hahaha yup

REVLIMIT · 08-01-2004, 12:17 AM

Damn...Ghost just said our secret O_o haha

Brian · 08-01-2004, 12:41 AM

i like how i have broken the bead on two of my tires already on the street. stretched tires are kinda sucking for me for every day drive.

BooZTT · 08-01-2004, 01:52 AM

Some people can't handle when there knowledge is questioned. I'm sorry I drove the issue home. Go to Japan and learn a few things..that's the only advice I will give you GridRace Tech.

Edited due to moderator making a legitimate point and tired of rediculous responses.

pita bread · 08-01-2004, 02:12 AM

Stop the personal attacks and stay on topic.

nissanguy_24 · 08-01-2004, 02:13 AM

Quote:

Originally posted by pita bread
Stop the personal attacks and stay on topic.

Ditto guys. remember the rule dissagreements are fine but you need to be respectable and refrain from personal attacks.

BooZTT · 08-01-2004, 03:09 AM

I agree it's retarded..which is why as you saw..I edited my posts to be more PC since that's how we have to be these days.

Ghost of Duluth · 08-01-2004, 10:14 AM

PC is good.

Stretching the tires, as I have always known it, is to keep the sidewall flex down during hard cornering. The more your tire flexes, the more the car rolls to the side under a load increasing the probability of you going the wrong way. What good is a stiff suspension and larger anti-roll bars if your car is still going to pitch due to high sidewall tires. Same reasoning as going from a 75 series tire to a 40 series tire. Less sidewall to flex. Also falls under the same reasoning as putting higher pressure in your tires. Less flex, less death from hitting a tree.

GRiDRaceTech · 08-01-2004, 10:34 AM

On the street, if you're interested in grip and don't drift much or at all, stretched tires are not the way to go. They offer less compliance and less contact patch, thus they will be harder to control in grip situations. True, they might have artificially stiff sidewalls, but the tires were not made for that kind of fitment. Why not just buy a tire with a very stiff sidewall (aka the Falken Azenis Sport) and run less wide wheels? Oh, wait, I know... because you value form over function. On a non-drift vehicle, there is no functional point to having stretched tires.
*Edit for GoD: Slightly more sidewall deflection is preferable to less contact patch. If you're driving hard on tires with floppy sidewalls, then I'd recommend not driving hard. Most high-performance street tires' sidewalls don't deflect too much and, even during deflection, the tires still grip very well due to the tire's compound being designed for said deflection. Increasing tire pressures will help reduce deflection, provided you leave them within the manufacturer's recommended specifications.*

In drifting, the stiffer sidewall, smaller tire sizes, and decreased contact patch are all pluses. I guess I just don't really understand fully the thought processes behind stretching a tire past its recommended boundaries.

BooZTT- My knowledge may be questioned, but it is sound.

(Don't even get me started on the excessive negative camber used by most drifters...

)

Ghost of Duluth · 08-01-2004, 10:38 AM

That I can also agree with. More contact patch means more sticking on the street. So it stands to reason, more contact patch, stiffer sidewall tire, you stay on the road that much more and harder to break loose.

This falls under the personal preference thing. If you like it, do it, if you don't, don't. Simple as that.

mk3mann · 08-01-2004, 01:23 PM

man!!!!!

i didnt know about this topic AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!

this is great!

with my TOMS' wheels 17x8's front and 9's rear i dont need to spend the extra $$$ eh??

and better handaling b/c of the less tire flex!!!!! i have never thought of this before, nor have i ever given it a thought before!

hahaha

plus it looks cool....

I love the BEE-R wheels....they llook so nice

BooZTT · 08-01-2004, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by GRiDRaceTech
BooZTT- My knowledge may be questioned, but it is sound. Expand your horizons to include grip driving and you'll see my fascination with contact patch. (Don't even get me started on the excessive negative camber used by most drifters... )

Just for a second imagine that we are at a website called "Drifting.com". And that the question asked just might have been related to drifting. And before you go saying things about people that you REALLY obviously don't know..bite your tounge. You have no idea who I am or what racing history I have..so your assumtions could bite back. I'm saying this in the nicest way possible and so that the moderators find this post "PC". You sir, have some things to learn..regardless of what you may already know and no matter WHAT version of motorsports it is related to. Open your mind and quite making assumtions about people who you obviously don't know..I'm not some 14 year old without a liscense drifting on GT3 whos never even changed a tire or the oil in his Daddy's car. Maybe you should ask around..before you say things about people..my horizons are more expanded than you could possibly imagine.

mk3mann · 08-01-2004, 01:35 PM

what about under HARD cornering....

will the bead of the tire come off the rim??

is that a possibility???

thats what i have always thought

well the beads are strong

Ghost of Duluth · 08-01-2004, 01:57 PM

Yes, that is a possibility, of course that is a posibility with all tires. The reason tires break bead as it's called is because under a heavy load they flex to one side in effect pulling the bead off the rim. A good example of this is Rockcrawling or Desert off road. They run bead locks on their rims because of the extreme low tire pressures they have to run to get grip. They run those low tire pressures to make more of a contact patch. If anyone here has seen a Rockcrawler in action, it is breathtaking. I rode in one up Rattle Rock in Knoxville. Some of these rocks are almost a tall as I am. It is something else.

The way a bead works is this. It is a metal heavy guage wire inside the tire that pops over the bead on the wheel. It then uses the strength of it and the tire pressure to hold it there. So if it flexs, it cause opposite force to be applied to the bead therefore pulling it off the inside of the rim. So the smaller the sidewall and the more pressure you run, the stiffer that sidewall is. A smaller sidewall actually creates a better contact patch because it doesn't allow the tire to "Roll" to one side and off of the contact patch. So basically with a stretched tire you are doing all of that. Creating a stiffer sidewall, eliminating some roll and keeping the contact patch to the ground more.

I am in love with your car BootII. I want some photo's of it.

TRusst · 08-01-2004, 02:17 PM

AHHH! That R32 is sick! I got a birthday coming around again in February...So if anybody wants to buy me that I'd be ok with it.

I'm no expert but I do have a little understanding about this. There is an old addage in racing, it goes something like "You grip on two and slide one four." That is why for drifting we have higher spring rates than do more conventional "grip" machines.

In normal racing, it is essential to know if it is going to be a wet or dry race. If it is raining or going to rain it requires a far different and softer setup for the car. Since the water has eliminated much of the surfaces grip, the the anti roll bars, spring rates, damping rates and tire pressures have to be softened to allow the cars weight to transfer, and push down on the outside tires so that the car will have the traction it needs to get through the corner.

This is just sort of an illustration...but a drift car setup for a dry track on a dry track behaves similarly to a race car setup for a dry track but on a wet track. Maybe not that extreme, but similar.

Look at Hubinettes Viper. I recently read that he runs 600lb springs on the front and 1000lb springs on the rear. This setup is just the opposite of a front engine rear drive race car. On a Viper set up for road racing you would want a softer spring on the rear than on the front to allow the weight of the car to more easily push down on the rear tires to increase traction. Tires are essential in this equation as tire pressure, and side wall stiffness are part of the equation when it comes to figuring out spring rates and dampening rates...Regardless if it is drift or grip!

I would guess that stretching tires would depend on the driver/car combination. What feels right to you. All you can do is experiment and test, and if you have any way to aquire data aside from the hands, feet, hands, and butt, look at that too.

TRusst · 08-01-2004, 02:21 PM

Drag racers also have special rims that allow them to use screws to fasten the bead of the tire to the rim, because they also run extremely low tire pressures...which allows the tire to mush into the surface and increase surface area. Of course, they don't have too many corners to speak of.

07-30-2004, 08:26 PM	#1
Ziptyed "Fear For Yourself" Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 424	streched tires I've noticed that a lot of Trueno(i like it better than saying 86) owners have streched smaller tires over there rims, does this do anything to the characteristics of the car, or increase uneven wear, or is it merely cosmetic?

07-31-2004, 08:06 AM	#5
Ziptyed "Fear For Yourself" Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Tampa Bay Posts: 424	These are "hipari" right? Attached Images

07-31-2004, 09:52 PM	#9
Ghost of Duluth Sixgun Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Neverland Posts: 2,280	I think it attracts the girls, and everyone knows thats what Drifting is all about. __________________ Team SIXGUN, Don't whine about the food chain, be the top of it. Tokyo Pimps, Godzilla is coming. Lorin, oh Lorin, where have you gone?? If you're in the stands warming the bench, don't whine about the guys in the drivers seats.

08-01-2004, 01:52 AM	#13
BooZTT Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: that place Posts: 174	Some people can't handle when there knowledge is questioned. I'm sorry I drove the issue home. Go to Japan and learn a few things..that's the only advice I will give you GridRace Tech. Edited due to moderator making a legitimate point and tired of rediculous responses. Last edited by BooZTT; 08-01-2004 at 02:36 AM.

08-01-2004, 10:14 AM	#17
Ghost of Duluth Sixgun Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Neverland Posts: 2,280	PC is good. Stretching the tires, as I have always known it, is to keep the sidewall flex down during hard cornering. The more your tire flexes, the more the car rolls to the side under a load increasing the probability of you going the wrong way. What good is a stiff suspension and larger anti-roll bars if your car is still going to pitch due to high sidewall tires. Same reasoning as going from a 75 series tire to a 40 series tire. Less sidewall to flex. Also falls under the same reasoning as putting higher pressure in your tires. Less flex, less death from hitting a tree. __________________ Team SIXGUN, Don't whine about the food chain, be the top of it. Tokyo Pimps, Godzilla is coming. Lorin, oh Lorin, where have you gone?? If you're in the stands warming the bench, don't whine about the guys in the drivers seats.

07-30-2004, 08:55 PM	#2
REVLIMIT The camaro drifter guy Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Waipio Gentry, Hawaii Posts: 233	Having a strecthed tire (to some degree) increases response and reduces roll over of the tire. It's not only Hachis that do this but almost all drift cars strecth their tires. I've noticed a difference in my car...I used to run 275 wide tires in the front but later switched over to 245. The tires are on a 9" rim...I noticed that the front tires did seem more responsive and while drifting it was more controllable.

07-30-2004, 11:24 PM	#3
GRiDRaceTech Opposite Lock Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,096	Stretched tires are the poor man's way of increasing tire rigidity. It decreases contact patch and increases the possiblity of uneven wear due to uneven heat dissipation. The decreased contact patch makes the tire easier to break free, but may increase the tendency of the tire to burst or wear through prematurely. REVLIMIT- The 275s were on the bare minimum of wheel width. The tread width is rated at around 11" for a 275. The 245s are on the maximum of wheel width, but still have a tread section width of about 9.7". The 275s were underused and the car was overtired. The 245s are about right for the Camaro's size and weight and made for a good match, thus the increase in response and control.

07-31-2004, 09:16 PM	#8
CrazyHawaiian Sample One Time!! Join Date: May 2003 Location: Hawaii Posts: 1,276	I dont know why you consider stretching tires to be for poor people only. Every time a pro team has come to drift here in Hawaii I see some of them running stretched tires (Signal, DX, etc). Not all, but yes some of them do. Now I know all these guys are sponsored, so the guys running the stretched tires must be doing it for other reasons than cost. I say its a personal preferance, possibly experimentation, but has nothing to do with being rich or poor. I've been messing with stretched tires in the rear and I think it helps. No I'm not sponsored, and yes I run free tires, but regardless, I like the way it feels. It reduces the sidewall flex and makes the tires more responsive. When I compare 245/50/16's on a 16x8 to 225/50/16's on the same rim, the smaller width stretched tire was better for me. Maybe thats just because of my type of car, or my style, but there it is. I run 42psi and have no problems with uneven tread wear or premature damage. I think the reason the 245's work better for Chris in the front is because of his style. Like me he does a lot of 4 wheel slides. I think for a car that had more steering angle and a different style of drifting the bigger tires like 275's would be good.

07-31-2004, 10:21 PM	#10
CrazyHawaiian Sample One Time!! Join Date: May 2003 Location: Hawaii Posts: 1,276	hahaha yup

08-01-2004, 12:17 AM	#11
REVLIMIT The camaro drifter guy Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Waipio Gentry, Hawaii Posts: 233	Damn...Ghost just said our secret O_o haha

08-01-2004, 12:41 AM	#12
Brian Registered User Join Date: Jul 2003 Posts: 1,302	i like how i have broken the bead on two of my tires already on the street. stretched tires are kinda sucking for me for every day drive.

08-01-2004, 02:12 AM	#14
pita bread Moderator Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 116	Stop the personal attacks and stay on topic.

08-01-2004, 03:09 AM	#16
BooZTT Registered User Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: that place Posts: 174	I agree it's retarded..which is why as you saw..I edited my posts to be more PC since that's how we have to be these days.

08-01-2004, 10:34 AM	#18
GRiDRaceTech Opposite Lock Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,096	On the street, if you're interested in grip and don't drift much or at all, stretched tires are not the way to go. They offer less compliance and less contact patch, thus they will be harder to control in grip situations. True, they might have artificially stiff sidewalls, but the tires were not made for that kind of fitment. Why not just buy a tire with a very stiff sidewall (aka the Falken Azenis Sport) and run less wide wheels? Oh, wait, I know... because you value form over function. On a non-drift vehicle, there is no functional point to having stretched tires. Edit for GoD: Slightly more sidewall deflection is preferable to less contact patch. If you're driving hard on tires with floppy sidewalls, then I'd recommend not driving hard. Most high-performance street tires' sidewalls don't deflect too much and, even during deflection, the tires still grip very well due to the tire's compound being designed for said deflection. Increasing tire pressures will help reduce deflection, provided you leave them within the manufacturer's recommended specifications. In drifting, the stiffer sidewall, smaller tire sizes, and decreased contact patch are all pluses. I guess I just don't really understand fully the thought processes behind stretching a tire past its recommended boundaries. BooZTT- My knowledge may be questioned, but it is sound. (Don't even get me started on the excessive negative camber used by most drifters... ) Last edited by GRiDRaceTech; 08-02-2004 at 11:06 AM.

08-01-2004, 10:38 AM	#19
Ghost of Duluth Sixgun Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Neverland Posts: 2,280	That I can also agree with. More contact patch means more sticking on the street. So it stands to reason, more contact patch, stiffer sidewall tire, you stay on the road that much more and harder to break loose. This falls under the personal preference thing. If you like it, do it, if you don't, don't. Simple as that. __________________ Team SIXGUN, Don't whine about the food chain, be the top of it. Tokyo Pimps, Godzilla is coming. Lorin, oh Lorin, where have you gone?? If you're in the stands warming the bench, don't whine about the guys in the drivers seats.

08-01-2004, 01:23 PM	#20
mk3mann Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Middle Tennessee Posts: 381	man!!!!! i didnt know about this topic AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!! this is great! with my TOMS' wheels 17x8's front and 9's rear i dont need to spend the extra $$$ eh?? and better handaling b/c of the less tire flex!!!!! i have never thought of this before, nor have i ever given it a thought before! hahaha plus it looks cool.... I love the BEE-R wheels....they llook so nice

08-01-2004, 01:35 PM	#22
mk3mann Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Middle Tennessee Posts: 381	what about under HARD cornering.... will the bead of the tire come off the rim?? is that a possibility??? thats what i have always thought well the beads are strong

08-01-2004, 01:57 PM	#23
Ghost of Duluth Sixgun Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Neverland Posts: 2,280	Yes, that is a possibility, of course that is a posibility with all tires. The reason tires break bead as it's called is because under a heavy load they flex to one side in effect pulling the bead off the rim. A good example of this is Rockcrawling or Desert off road. They run bead locks on their rims because of the extreme low tire pressures they have to run to get grip. They run those low tire pressures to make more of a contact patch. If anyone here has seen a Rockcrawler in action, it is breathtaking. I rode in one up Rattle Rock in Knoxville. Some of these rocks are almost a tall as I am. It is something else. The way a bead works is this. It is a metal heavy guage wire inside the tire that pops over the bead on the wheel. It then uses the strength of it and the tire pressure to hold it there. So if it flexs, it cause opposite force to be applied to the bead therefore pulling it off the inside of the rim. So the smaller the sidewall and the more pressure you run, the stiffer that sidewall is. A smaller sidewall actually creates a better contact patch because it doesn't allow the tire to "Roll" to one side and off of the contact patch. So basically with a stretched tire you are doing all of that. Creating a stiffer sidewall, eliminating some roll and keeping the contact patch to the ground more. I am in love with your car BootII. I want some photo's of it. __________________ Team SIXGUN, Don't whine about the food chain, be the top of it. Tokyo Pimps, Godzilla is coming. Lorin, oh Lorin, where have you gone?? If you're in the stands warming the bench, don't whine about the guys in the drivers seats.

08-01-2004, 02:17 PM	#24
TRusst Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Almost Atlanta Posts: 143	AHHH! That R32 is sick! I got a birthday coming around again in February...So if anybody wants to buy me that I'd be ok with it. I'm no expert but I do have a little understanding about this. There is an old addage in racing, it goes something like "You grip on two and slide one four." That is why for drifting we have higher spring rates than do more conventional "grip" machines. In normal racing, it is essential to know if it is going to be a wet or dry race. If it is raining or going to rain it requires a far different and softer setup for the car. Since the water has eliminated much of the surfaces grip, the the anti roll bars, spring rates, damping rates and tire pressures have to be softened to allow the cars weight to transfer, and push down on the outside tires so that the car will have the traction it needs to get through the corner. This is just sort of an illustration...but a drift car setup for a dry track on a dry track behaves similarly to a race car setup for a dry track but on a wet track. Maybe not that extreme, but similar. Look at Hubinettes Viper. I recently read that he runs 600lb springs on the front and 1000lb springs on the rear. This setup is just the opposite of a front engine rear drive race car. On a Viper set up for road racing you would want a softer spring on the rear than on the front to allow the weight of the car to more easily push down on the rear tires to increase traction. Tires are essential in this equation as tire pressure, and side wall stiffness are part of the equation when it comes to figuring out spring rates and dampening rates...Regardless if it is drift or grip! I would guess that stretching tires would depend on the driver/car combination. What feels right to you. All you can do is experiment and test, and if you have any way to aquire data aside from the hands, feet, hands, and butt, look at that too.

08-01-2004, 02:21 PM	#25
TRusst Registered User Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Almost Atlanta Posts: 143	Drag racers also have special rims that allow them to use screws to fasten the bead of the tire to the rim, because they also run extremely low tire pressures...which allows the tire to mush into the surface and increase surface area. Of course, they don't have too many corners to speak of.

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